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this program is brought to you by the

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genesis communications network a world

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leader in talk radio since 1998. visit

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[Music]

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hey

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you're in the paracast the gold standard

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of paranormal radio

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and now

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here's gene steinberg

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i have to thank chris o'brien

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for

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pointing me in this direction because we

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normally get lots of letters from

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publicists book publishers suggesting

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hey we've got a book and we've got a

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guest

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and wouldn't you like to have that

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particular guest

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and in this case

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it's a gentleman name of gary lachman

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and chris looked at that name and says

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because chris of course is a rock and

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roller and so is gary chris why don't

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you explain

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well

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first of all

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you know as many of our listeners

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already know i was in new york during

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the wild and early 70s and 80s and

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lived downtown for a number of years uh

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in manhattan and

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was uh you know there when a lot of uh

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real historic events i mean seen talking

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heads with 30 people at max's or

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seeing the police roadie their own gear

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at cbgb's and and seen early shows with

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with blondie where

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gary was actually the original bass

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player um before

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uh going off for other pursuits and

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being replaced by uh i think was nigel

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harrison wasn't correct me if i'm wrong

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but

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i also used to share a rehearsal space

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with chris and debbie and jimmy and

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clemen and the guys

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later on this would have been after they

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had

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lines but in i think 81 82

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for

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a short while it wasn't very long a few

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months we would uh set up and uh and do

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our thing uh before they would come in

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and

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i remember sharing a few moments with

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them of course i did get to know chris

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and debbie a little bit uh through

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mutual friends and uh

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it uh you know as gary will attest uh it

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was a real magical time in new york city

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it was a real expansive

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extremely inspiring time in the arts and

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especially in music and there are a lot

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of clubs and in great bands fans that

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would come over from england hardly

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anybody knew so you'd get you know small

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crowds and get a chance to interact with

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uh with people and

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you know i think gary will also agree

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that

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you really had to um have your a game

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going to keep up with the nightlife

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there it was uh extremely fast-paced

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to put it mildly

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you know you really had to be a

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professional to be able to

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kind of have that lifestyle and be able

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to show up and

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know your parts and not mess up and uh

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you know put on good performances so

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uh we kind of

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have that thing to share

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i actually i think i met you at a party

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some studio opening party at one point

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i remember we were introduced but back

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then i mean gosha parties were daily

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nightly and uh just living that that

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life

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was quite a quite a kaleidoscope and a

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whirlwind of of people places events

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uh how long how long were you in new

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york gary you you mentioned earlier

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before you went on the air you're from

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bayonne new jersey which of course was

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right across the river the hudson from

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the west side of new york city uh how

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long were you actually there

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well i just want to say one thing um

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when i left blondie um they got another

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bass player but they didn't replace me

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in any case

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i i started hanging out in uh new york

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in say around

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late 73-74

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um because we used to just go over you

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know on the path trains and just go hang

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out down in the village and then when i

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became aware of um people like david

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bowie and lou reed and

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and that friends and i we read that they

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were hanging out in this uh club this

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place called club 82

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uh that's not there anymore that was on

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east east fourth street uh sort of

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between second and third avenue this was

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an old drag like transvestite kind of

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club that started letting rock bands

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play

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and into the new york dolls at this time

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and they would play there and the word

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was that bowie and lou reed were hanging

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out at this place a lot so a couple

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friends and i were determined to meet

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them so we used to go to this place

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correctly every night uh and it was from

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being in that milieu that i wound up

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living in new york

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um uh not long after

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and i started out i really wasn't a

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musician i was i was i wrote poetry uh

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it was pretty bad i'm glad none of it

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has survived but i was kind of hanging

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out with kind of real musicians in in

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new jersey uh and picking up little bits

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and pieces the drummer from blondie

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there's another fellow from bayonne new

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jersey of klemberg

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when their bass player quit

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this is in a very very early stages when

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blondie before it became blondie they

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were going through all different kinds

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of different transformations and trying

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to get something going and at one point

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clemson started playing with them

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uh debbie and chris and then um their

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bass player at the time quit

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to join

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television because television's bass

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player richard hell left to do his own

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band called

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with johnny thunders from the new york

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dolls i had been hanging out a lot and

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he said want you to come down and you

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know no audition so i could you know

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kind of sort of almost maybe play

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and i looked the part i was really

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skinny because i was starving because at

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the time i was

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working as a messenger in new york and

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just making enough money barely barely

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to like pay my little bit of the rent

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where i was living

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and i hadn't had dark glasses which i

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wore all the time and that was enough so

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i started playing with them in um say

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around april of 75 and then we did uh

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the first time we played cbg was during

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this

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festival of unsigned new york talent it

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wasn't called punk yet uh and this was

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um early summer of 75. and i i was you

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know i was there for you know quite some

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time i had my own band after i left

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blondie i had a band called the no for a

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while

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and we played in new york in l.a

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and my last kind of uh hurrah with uh

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rock more or less was when i played with

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the iggy pop for uh two north american

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tours oh no kidding wow

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it was 1981 yeah

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that must have been a trip yeah that was

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that was the sex drugs and rock and roll

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tour and by the end of it or into both

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of them i i'd had quite enough of all

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three as it were and i kind of hung my

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fender stratocaster up on the wall for a

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while and it wasn't until many many

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years later in in the late 90s 96 97

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when i actually was first started living

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here in london that i wound up doing

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some blondie gigs again this is at the

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beginning of their sort of reunion yeah

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their comeback sure yeah i'm just going

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to say i did some shows with them in new

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york and then um these big festivals

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across the states but it all sort of

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went uh south uh once again for your

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readers edification i write about all of

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this in a book of mine called new york

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rocker which is about my memoir my time

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playing in blondie

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well you know speaking of your writing

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you've written many many books and

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i do have a couple of them one of my

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favorite books really about

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a

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often

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sort of underreported and i think

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sensationalized when you do hear about

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the occult and rock and roll

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um that

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it really hasn't been a subject that

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very many people have been willing to

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tackle and your book turn off your mind

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i think is the

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if not the preeminent book about the

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subject it's definitely in the top

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you know the top ranking of books

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covering this subject there have been a

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number of books that cover the subject

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but i think your book

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in particular gives a really

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a sober

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well-informed look at the influence of

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what you could loosely uh call the

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occult and um and how it has been

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a kind of a

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burbling underneath

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the surface all through the history of

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rock and roll and what

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initially attracted you to the occult uh

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give us a little background on your

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interest in the in the occult sciences

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and in that particular subject

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well um

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what i got interested in the occult and

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pretty much everything else that i've

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been writing about for a long time uh

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while i was playing in blondie

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i uh was living on the bowery with um

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debbie harry and chris stein in a

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illegal loft space which i think it's

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still standing but i saw somewhere

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recently

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on facebook or somewhere like that that

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it was it was slated to be demolished

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and another you know absolutely

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overpriced restaurant or hotel was going

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to be put up there

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um but uh when i was living there um

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there there was still

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this kind of leftover um kind of

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cultural debris from the previous

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generation

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so there were books about the occult and

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you know

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psychedelics and castaneda and timothy

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leary and tibetan book of the dead and

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things like that but then also in this

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in this loft space

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um chris and debbie had a kind of

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kitschy you know kind of fun interest in

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it and they decorated the place with

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weird things like voodoo things and sort

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of you know upside down crosses and

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pentagrams and and candles and stuff

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like that

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okay gary lachman is here with gina and

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[Music]

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send it to news the paracast.com that's

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news at

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theparecast.com and don't forget to

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visit our famous paracast community

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forums at forum.theparacast.com

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[Music]

374
00:14:36,389 --> 00:14:34,000
so from good old rock and roll

375
00:14:39,269 --> 00:14:36,399
punk rock to the occult we're talking

376
00:14:40,949 --> 00:14:39,279
gary lachman and he's got a new book out

377
00:14:41,670 --> 00:14:40,959
and he's got a number of books if you

378
00:14:44,150 --> 00:14:41,680
check

379
00:14:45,829 --> 00:14:44,160
his site and also amazon the current one

380
00:14:47,509 --> 00:14:45,839
is beyond the robot i want to tell you

381
00:14:50,629 --> 00:14:47,519
about something else we've got we've got

382
00:14:52,550 --> 00:14:50,639
after the powercast our exclusive

383
00:14:55,350 --> 00:14:52,560
podcast which is available only to

384
00:14:57,750 --> 00:14:55,360
members of the powercast plus

385
00:15:00,389 --> 00:14:57,760
and to be able to download

386
00:15:02,069 --> 00:15:00,399
each weekly episode and get a commercial

387
00:15:03,590 --> 00:15:02,079
free version of this show

388
00:15:06,829 --> 00:15:03,600
join the powercast plus at

389
00:15:09,430 --> 00:15:08,470
plus.theparacast.com

390
00:15:11,350 --> 00:15:09,440
so

391
00:15:14,150 --> 00:15:11,360
gary's talking about his early days of

392
00:15:15,990 --> 00:15:14,160
hanging out with debbie harry and

393
00:15:18,230 --> 00:15:16,000
the people from blondie

394
00:15:19,590 --> 00:15:18,240
and living in this loft

395
00:15:21,430 --> 00:15:19,600
illegally

396
00:15:23,590 --> 00:15:21,440
of course now there are a lot of homes

397
00:15:25,670 --> 00:15:23,600
in new york that whether legal or not

398
00:15:27,670 --> 00:15:25,680
you can't afford them but i assume here

399
00:15:30,150 --> 00:15:27,680
did they actually have to pay rent to

400
00:15:32,310 --> 00:15:30,160
live in this place or what well we paid

401
00:15:35,590 --> 00:15:32,320
rent but it was sort of like someone had

402
00:15:38,069 --> 00:15:35,600
got hold of the space and was not really

403
00:15:40,310 --> 00:15:38,079
supposed to rent out the other floors

404
00:15:42,150 --> 00:15:40,320
and was doing that and then somehow we

405
00:15:44,389 --> 00:15:42,160
got the electricity tapped into this

406
00:15:46,470 --> 00:15:44,399
liquor store that was downstairs so they

407
00:15:48,310 --> 00:15:46,480
were paying our electricity bill it was

408
00:15:50,310 --> 00:15:48,320
things like that i was going to say this

409
00:15:51,749 --> 00:15:50,320
fellow who sort of had the place he

410
00:15:53,670 --> 00:15:51,759
himself was interested in the occult and

411
00:15:55,509 --> 00:15:53,680
he was he was he was a great fan of

412
00:15:58,710 --> 00:15:55,519
aleister crowley who was this

413
00:16:01,509 --> 00:15:58,720
fantastically uh flamboyant

414
00:16:04,230 --> 00:16:01,519
dark magician in britain in the

415
00:16:06,389 --> 00:16:04,240
early 20th century and he would do these

416
00:16:08,230 --> 00:16:06,399
impromptu readings with his tarot cards

417
00:16:09,590 --> 00:16:08,240
and things like that and so i gradually

418
00:16:10,550 --> 00:16:09,600
got interested in this stuff because it

419
00:16:13,030 --> 00:16:10,560
was there i was kind of in the

420
00:16:15,829 --> 00:16:13,040
atmosphere one book that i picked up at

421
00:16:17,910 --> 00:16:15,839
the time uh simply called the occult and

422
00:16:20,310 --> 00:16:17,920
it was by this british writer named

423
00:16:21,749 --> 00:16:20,320
colin wilson wilson who might as you

424
00:16:23,990 --> 00:16:21,759
mentioned my most recent book beyond the

425
00:16:26,470 --> 00:16:24,000
robot the life and work of colin wilson

426
00:16:28,470 --> 00:16:26,480
is is a biography of and as i said i

427
00:16:30,710 --> 00:16:28,480
hadn't any interest in it i was always

428
00:16:31,910 --> 00:16:30,720
reading i i i read tons of stuff all the

429
00:16:33,110 --> 00:16:31,920
time or you know the beats and

430
00:16:34,949 --> 00:16:33,120
existentialists and all this kind of

431
00:16:36,790 --> 00:16:34,959
stuff but what i liked about his book is

432
00:16:38,310 --> 00:16:36,800
that first off the writing the narrative

433
00:16:39,670 --> 00:16:38,320
was so good the writing style was so

434
00:16:41,910 --> 00:16:39,680
good he just i didn't want to put it

435
00:16:43,829 --> 00:16:41,920
down and then he was talking about all

436
00:16:45,350 --> 00:16:43,839
of this interesting stuff about

437
00:16:46,949 --> 00:16:45,360
different states of consciousness and

438
00:16:49,269 --> 00:16:46,959
hidden powers

439
00:16:50,949 --> 00:16:49,279
and you know uh all that kind of thing

440
00:16:52,550 --> 00:16:50,959
but it was in the context of this kind

441
00:16:54,790 --> 00:16:52,560
of philosophy this kind of kind of

442
00:16:56,389 --> 00:16:54,800
context of well i later realized it was

443
00:16:57,829 --> 00:16:56,399
in the context of what was known as

444
00:16:59,350 --> 00:16:57,839
existential philosophy which he had

445
00:17:01,269 --> 00:16:59,360
written about already

446
00:17:02,790 --> 00:17:01,279
and all that but i was just 19 picking

447
00:17:04,630 --> 00:17:02,800
this book up and it was like wow this is

448
00:17:06,230 --> 00:17:04,640
you know i was just pulled over by it

449
00:17:09,110 --> 00:17:06,240
and that's how i got interested in it so

450
00:17:11,429 --> 00:17:09,120
i started out sort of a naive enthusiast

451
00:17:13,189 --> 00:17:11,439
and i just ran out and started reading

452
00:17:15,829 --> 00:17:13,199
all the books about this i could get and

453
00:17:17,590 --> 00:17:15,839
this was a time in 75 when there was a

454
00:17:20,630 --> 00:17:17,600
lot of stuff that was available and it

455
00:17:22,949 --> 00:17:20,640
was cheap there were a lot of classic

456
00:17:24,870 --> 00:17:22,959
occult texts that would be reprinted in

457
00:17:26,549 --> 00:17:24,880
these kind of cheap editions and they

458
00:17:28,309 --> 00:17:26,559
were all on the remainder tables in

459
00:17:29,029 --> 00:17:28,319
places like barnes noble and all like

460
00:17:31,029 --> 00:17:29,039
that

461
00:17:32,789 --> 00:17:31,039
so i just wound up just more and more

462
00:17:34,390 --> 00:17:32,799
reading reading reading about it and i

463
00:17:36,310 --> 00:17:34,400
got a reputation for carrying you know

464
00:17:38,710 --> 00:17:36,320
all these books around uh with me when i

465
00:17:40,230 --> 00:17:38,720
went on tour uh and stuff like that and

466
00:17:42,230 --> 00:17:40,240
when you know other guys are out you

467
00:17:44,230 --> 00:17:42,240
know having a wild time i'd be back in

468
00:17:46,390 --> 00:17:44,240
the hotel you know digging through you

469
00:17:48,630 --> 00:17:46,400
know the stack of books i had

470
00:17:50,630 --> 00:17:48,640
i wonder how they reacted to that

471
00:17:52,950 --> 00:17:50,640
because you always think of

472
00:17:54,390 --> 00:17:52,960
rock and rollers going out and drinking

473
00:17:56,789 --> 00:17:54,400
and smoking

474
00:17:59,510 --> 00:17:56,799
and sniffing and everything and having

475
00:18:01,430 --> 00:17:59,520
wacky times and basically almost getting

476
00:18:03,909 --> 00:18:01,440
away from it all because

477
00:18:05,350 --> 00:18:03,919
if you're on something it's hard to take

478
00:18:07,270 --> 00:18:05,360
attention to

479
00:18:08,710 --> 00:18:07,280
real world and you're sitting there

480
00:18:10,789 --> 00:18:08,720
you're the bookworm

481
00:18:13,430 --> 00:18:10,799
did they make fun of you for that

482
00:18:15,029 --> 00:18:13,440
uh sometimes uh but i think at one point

483
00:18:17,510 --> 00:18:15,039
when things started to get a bit

484
00:18:18,789 --> 00:18:17,520
acrimonious between um chris debbie and

485
00:18:20,710 --> 00:18:18,799
myself i think they were worried that i

486
00:18:22,710 --> 00:18:20,720
was going to cast spells on them

487
00:18:25,590 --> 00:18:22,720
something like that oh

488
00:18:27,909 --> 00:18:25,600
right so that was almost a good uh you

489
00:18:30,070 --> 00:18:27,919
know the best uh offense is a good

490
00:18:33,029 --> 00:18:30,080
defense so just carry around some

491
00:18:34,870 --> 00:18:33,039
books that uh might shake people's uh

492
00:18:37,029 --> 00:18:34,880
belief systems a little bit and that

493
00:18:38,630 --> 00:18:37,039
that might alleviate some problems when

494
00:18:41,430 --> 00:18:38,640
things got difficult

495
00:18:43,590 --> 00:18:41,440
start speaking some spells even

496
00:18:45,590 --> 00:18:43,600
gibberish spells under your breath so

497
00:18:48,230 --> 00:18:45,600
they kind of walk away

498
00:18:50,070 --> 00:18:48,240
well start to start toning uh enoki and

499
00:18:52,070 --> 00:18:50,080
chance in a deep guttural voice that

500
00:18:54,070 --> 00:18:52,080
that generally does the trick

501
00:18:56,150 --> 00:18:54,080
absolutely but i was going to say i mean

502
00:18:58,950 --> 00:18:56,160
at least there was one very good thing

503
00:19:01,270 --> 00:18:58,960
for myself and blondie as a whole came

504
00:19:03,350 --> 00:19:01,280
out of all this was that a song i wrote

505
00:19:06,070 --> 00:19:03,360
i'm always touched by your presence dear

506
00:19:08,230 --> 00:19:06,080
became a big hit in the uk and in europe

507
00:19:09,430 --> 00:19:08,240
it wasn't so it wasn't a hit in the

508
00:19:10,950 --> 00:19:09,440
states but over this side of the

509
00:19:12,789 --> 00:19:10,960
atlantic it was and this was a song

510
00:19:15,430 --> 00:19:12,799
about the telepathic

511
00:19:17,110 --> 00:19:15,440
and strange kind of dream experiences

512
00:19:19,830 --> 00:19:17,120
my girlfriend at the time and i were

513
00:19:22,230 --> 00:19:19,840
having we discovered that uh while i was

514
00:19:23,590 --> 00:19:22,240
on tour we we just found out that we

515
00:19:25,190 --> 00:19:23,600
were sort of having the same kinds of

516
00:19:27,110 --> 00:19:25,200
dreams or we would call each other at

517
00:19:29,190 --> 00:19:27,120
the same time and all this sort of stuff

518
00:19:31,029 --> 00:19:29,200
that actually it's not that unusual

519
00:19:33,669 --> 00:19:31,039
among couples i mean there's a lot of

520
00:19:35,190 --> 00:19:33,679
evidence to a lot of stories that show

521
00:19:37,190 --> 00:19:35,200
that there is this kind of telepathic

522
00:19:39,110 --> 00:19:37,200
connection but it was something that

523
00:19:41,190 --> 00:19:39,120
because i was reading about this stuff

524
00:19:42,950 --> 00:19:41,200
and so was my girlfriend at the time and

525
00:19:44,470 --> 00:19:42,960
we we were just becoming hey you know

526
00:19:46,150 --> 00:19:44,480
this is actually real and so i wrote

527
00:19:48,150 --> 00:19:46,160
that song about it so something very

528
00:19:50,150 --> 00:19:48,160
good came out of it in instead of just

529
00:19:52,549 --> 00:19:50,160
sort of paranoia about my my casting

530
00:19:54,390 --> 00:19:52,559
spells this may be an emotional question

531
00:19:57,510 --> 00:19:54,400
that you don't want to answer

532
00:20:00,310 --> 00:19:57,520
but having left blondie before

533
00:20:02,789 --> 00:20:00,320
parallel lines do you ever feel kind of

534
00:20:05,190 --> 00:20:02,799
like pete best in the beatles you're not

535
00:20:06,950 --> 00:20:05,200
the first to say that not really not

536
00:20:08,870 --> 00:20:06,960
really to be absolutely candid and

537
00:20:11,270 --> 00:20:08,880
honest i mean at the time i wanted to

538
00:20:13,990 --> 00:20:11,280
have my own band and so that was the

539
00:20:15,909 --> 00:20:14,000
main driving thing and then later on

540
00:20:17,830 --> 00:20:15,919
okay yeah sometimes you felt like well

541
00:20:19,909 --> 00:20:17,840
you know uh god i could have maybe used

542
00:20:21,909 --> 00:20:19,919
that money or so on and so on but no

543
00:20:23,830 --> 00:20:21,919
because i actually

544
00:20:25,110 --> 00:20:23,840
had to say it i just my sensibilities

545
00:20:28,070 --> 00:20:25,120
had changed

546
00:20:29,909 --> 00:20:28,080
and so by the time that i saw that they

547
00:20:32,549 --> 00:20:29,919
were becoming you know huge which was

548
00:20:34,310 --> 00:20:32,559
like sort of the early early 80s i was

549
00:20:35,669 --> 00:20:34,320
gradually moving out of playing music

550
00:20:39,270 --> 00:20:35,679
anyway because i was doing so much

551
00:20:40,470 --> 00:20:39,280
reading it was just difficult for me to

552
00:20:42,950 --> 00:20:40,480
one thing happened i couldn't write

553
00:20:44,870 --> 00:20:42,960
songs i i was writing i wrote lots of

554
00:20:46,470 --> 00:20:44,880
songs that's the one thing if i have any

555
00:20:48,070 --> 00:20:46,480
regrets about

556
00:20:49,430 --> 00:20:48,080
that time was that there's quite a few

557
00:20:51,430 --> 00:20:49,440
very good songs of mine i've had to say

558
00:20:53,590 --> 00:20:51,440
so myself that didn't get an airing a

559
00:20:55,029 --> 00:20:53,600
few that did you know um i'm grateful

560
00:20:57,430 --> 00:20:55,039
for but there's there's you know there's

561
00:21:00,149 --> 00:20:57,440
a clutch of some that that didn't didn't

562
00:21:02,310 --> 00:21:00,159
get out there uh but no no not really i

563
00:21:05,669 --> 00:21:02,320
mean in fact uh this is something that

564
00:21:07,190 --> 00:21:05,679
uh what i did after leaving blondie and

565
00:21:09,350 --> 00:21:07,200
act and then leaving my you know rock

566
00:21:11,830 --> 00:21:09,360
and roll in general um i went back to

567
00:21:13,590 --> 00:21:11,840
university and i i got a degree in

568
00:21:15,510 --> 00:21:13,600
philosophy i remember my philosophy

569
00:21:18,070 --> 00:21:15,520
teacher saying to me you gave up rock

570
00:21:20,230 --> 00:21:18,080
and roll to come here you know

571
00:21:22,310 --> 00:21:20,240
and study this

572
00:21:24,149 --> 00:21:22,320
yeah they couldn't conceive of it they

573
00:21:27,190 --> 00:21:24,159
couldn't conceive it's almost like oil

574
00:21:30,310 --> 00:21:27,200
and water but is it really because i

575
00:21:31,909 --> 00:21:30,320
think a lot of people are and rollers

576
00:21:34,149 --> 00:21:31,919
are interested in

577
00:21:36,549 --> 00:21:34,159
in the occult to some degree

578
00:21:37,669 --> 00:21:36,559
maybe they don't pursue it as deeply as

579
00:21:39,110 --> 00:21:37,679
you have

580
00:21:43,029 --> 00:21:39,120
well the occult is one thing gene

581
00:21:46,390 --> 00:21:44,390
philosophy is

582
00:21:48,310 --> 00:21:46,400
a very very difficult academic subject

583
00:21:50,549 --> 00:21:48,320
to study it's it's

584
00:21:52,789 --> 00:21:50,559
there's a tremendous amount of of

585
00:21:55,750 --> 00:21:52,799
research and reading and concentration

586
00:21:58,149 --> 00:21:55,760
and thinking that has to go on uh

587
00:22:00,070 --> 00:21:58,159
which is almost

588
00:22:02,390 --> 00:22:00,080
it's like the antithesis of rock and

589
00:22:04,149 --> 00:22:02,400
roll rock and roll is

590
00:22:05,990 --> 00:22:04,159
with few exceptions of course i mean

591
00:22:08,470 --> 00:22:06,000
there's some really great

592
00:22:10,310 --> 00:22:08,480
very very talented poets and songwriters

593
00:22:11,909 --> 00:22:10,320
you know just look at dylan and you know

594
00:22:13,510 --> 00:22:11,919
people like springsteen others who

595
00:22:15,990 --> 00:22:13,520
really put a lot of thought

596
00:22:18,310 --> 00:22:16,000
and really work on their craft but uh

597
00:22:19,350 --> 00:22:18,320
you know for the most part i mean it's

598
00:22:21,830 --> 00:22:19,360
you know the last thing that you're

599
00:22:24,070 --> 00:22:21,840
gonna hear somebody talking about it at

600
00:22:26,549 --> 00:22:24,080
a party with a bunch of rock and rollers

601
00:22:30,070 --> 00:22:26,559
is uh you know what what'd you think of

602
00:22:31,990 --> 00:22:30,080
emmanuel kant versus uh you know uh you

603
00:22:35,270 --> 00:22:32,000
know did you know that uh

604
00:22:37,750 --> 00:22:35,280
that uh descartes uh got his axiom uh

605
00:22:39,350 --> 00:22:37,760
you know the the secret of nature's uh

606
00:22:41,110 --> 00:22:39,360
measure you know measurement and in

607
00:22:43,350 --> 00:22:41,120
number did you know that that was

608
00:22:45,029 --> 00:22:43,360
brought to him by an angel let's break

609
00:22:48,070 --> 00:22:45,039
it here chris okay the book is beyond

610
00:22:58,470 --> 00:22:48,080
the robot gary lachman is our guest with

611
00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:03,190
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[Music]

716
00:27:19,830 --> 00:27:17,669
hi this is bryce abel i'm the producer

717
00:27:21,590 --> 00:27:19,840
of dark skies the co-author of ad after

718
00:27:24,950 --> 00:27:21,600
disclosure and you are listening to the

719
00:27:26,260 --> 00:27:24,960
paracast the gold standard of paranormal

720
00:27:33,669 --> 00:27:26,270
radio

721
00:27:35,669 --> 00:27:33,679
[Music]

722
00:27:37,590 --> 00:27:35,679
so let's leave rock and roll behind

723
00:27:39,510 --> 00:27:37,600
maybe we'll get back to it later

724
00:27:41,669 --> 00:27:39,520
not so fast not so fast okay a little

725
00:27:43,750 --> 00:27:41,679
bit more rock and roll chris but then

726
00:27:45,269 --> 00:27:43,760
once we need to get backed up philosophy

727
00:27:47,269 --> 00:27:45,279
and colin wilson

728
00:27:48,870 --> 00:27:47,279
it's gonna dovetail nicely one thing

729
00:27:51,269 --> 00:27:48,880
that i've noticed as the years have

730
00:27:53,909 --> 00:27:51,279
progressed we've had ebony employing

731
00:27:56,470 --> 00:27:53,919
waves of indignant parents and

732
00:27:58,230 --> 00:27:56,480
groups headed by tipper gore that really

733
00:28:00,470 --> 00:27:58,240
try to put a spotlight on the whole

734
00:28:01,190 --> 00:28:00,480
subject of the occult in popular music

735
00:28:11,669 --> 00:28:01,200
and

736
00:28:13,750 --> 00:28:11,679
line of clothing with sort of masonic

737
00:28:15,750 --> 00:28:13,760
symbols and that sort of thing

738
00:28:17,830 --> 00:28:15,760
and madonna and her studying the

739
00:28:19,190 --> 00:28:17,840
kabbalah and

740
00:28:21,990 --> 00:28:19,200
stories like that

741
00:28:24,710 --> 00:28:22,000
how big of a role do you really think

742
00:28:28,149 --> 00:28:24,720
the occult has in rock and roll with

743
00:28:29,110 --> 00:28:28,159
actual serious practitioning shall we

744
00:28:33,110 --> 00:28:29,120
say or

745
00:28:33,990 --> 00:28:33,120
or serious occult practices that are

746
00:28:37,350 --> 00:28:34,000
being

747
00:28:39,510 --> 00:28:37,360
applied to uh music or any of the arts

748
00:28:40,870 --> 00:28:39,520
for that matter popular arts do you

749
00:28:43,269 --> 00:28:40,880
think that there is

750
00:28:46,230 --> 00:28:43,279
a large group of people that are

751
00:28:47,669 --> 00:28:46,240
actually uh actively pursuing uh these

752
00:28:49,669 --> 00:28:47,679
this particular connection or do you

753
00:28:51,029 --> 00:28:49,679
think most of it's just fully overblown

754
00:28:53,830 --> 00:28:51,039
by the press

755
00:28:55,350 --> 00:28:53,840
i think there's probably a few

756
00:28:56,149 --> 00:28:55,360
well it depends what you mean by serious

757
00:28:57,350 --> 00:28:56,159
um

758
00:28:58,870 --> 00:28:57,360
but i think there's probably a few

759
00:29:00,630 --> 00:28:58,880
people that are serious probably a few

760
00:29:02,070 --> 00:29:00,640
people that really you know get into it

761
00:29:04,310 --> 00:29:02,080
and do all the rituals and all that but

762
00:29:06,389 --> 00:29:04,320
i think mostly it's probably blown up

763
00:29:07,350 --> 00:29:06,399
it's something that uh it makes good

764
00:29:09,350 --> 00:29:07,360
copy

765
00:29:10,870 --> 00:29:09,360
um and it helps you know it helps the

766
00:29:13,350 --> 00:29:10,880
celebrities as well

767
00:29:15,029 --> 00:29:13,360
um i mean i i i write a bit about this

768
00:29:17,990 --> 00:29:15,039
at the end of my my book on alistair

769
00:29:19,510 --> 00:29:18,000
crowley which is uh subtitled magic rock

770
00:29:21,990 --> 00:29:19,520
and roll and the wickedest man in the

771
00:29:24,630 --> 00:29:22,000
world which i do have by the way i

772
00:29:26,630 --> 00:29:24,640
mentioned earlier that crowley um was

773
00:29:28,549 --> 00:29:26,640
this notorious you know magician from

774
00:29:31,190 --> 00:29:28,559
you know the early 20th century he was

775
00:29:33,350 --> 00:29:31,200
rediscovered in the 60s and kind of seen

776
00:29:36,630 --> 00:29:33,360
as a proto-hippie and ever since then

777
00:29:40,549 --> 00:29:36,640
he's been um a kind of icon for this

778
00:29:41,350 --> 00:29:40,559
aspect of rock and roll mr crowley

779
00:29:43,909 --> 00:29:41,360
yeah

780
00:29:46,070 --> 00:29:43,919
when i was in the business let's say the

781
00:29:47,750 --> 00:29:46,080
the few people i met that had an

782
00:29:49,590 --> 00:29:47,760
interest in this uh have to say they

783
00:29:51,830 --> 00:29:49,600
didn't impress me very much and i i

784
00:29:53,990 --> 00:29:51,840
don't mean to speak ill of the dead but

785
00:29:55,269 --> 00:29:54,000
i i do tell a story in new york rocker

786
00:29:56,230 --> 00:29:55,279
about getting kicked out of david

787
00:29:58,549 --> 00:29:56,240
bowie's

788
00:30:00,950 --> 00:29:58,559
uh loft in midtown manhattan because we

789
00:30:04,070 --> 00:30:00,960
had a disagreement precisely about colin

790
00:30:05,510 --> 00:30:04,080
wilson i got invited to this party there

791
00:30:06,870 --> 00:30:05,520
so i went and then there was a loan the

792
00:30:09,350 --> 00:30:06,880
conversation

793
00:30:11,510 --> 00:30:09,360
and i could gather had been about the

794
00:30:13,110 --> 00:30:11,520
occult in some way and someone said oh

795
00:30:14,630 --> 00:30:13,120
well gary knows all about the occult

796
00:30:17,430 --> 00:30:14,640
because you know he reads he reads colin

797
00:30:18,789 --> 00:30:17,440
wilson so this is about 1980 80 1981

798
00:30:20,870 --> 00:30:18,799
something like that

799
00:30:23,669 --> 00:30:20,880
and bowie started saying something like

800
00:30:25,590 --> 00:30:23,679
oh colin wilson he he heads a coven in

801
00:30:27,830 --> 00:30:25,600
cornwall and he goes around you know

802
00:30:30,149 --> 00:30:27,840
drawing pentagrams on people's doorsteps

803
00:30:32,310 --> 00:30:30,159
and i said well actually david i don't

804
00:30:33,830 --> 00:30:32,320
think that's really quite true and then

805
00:30:35,350 --> 00:30:33,840
then he said oh yes he sort of

806
00:30:36,870 --> 00:30:35,360
materializes

807
00:30:38,470 --> 00:30:36,880
dead nazis and all this kind of weird

808
00:30:40,389 --> 00:30:38,480
stuff he was saying

809
00:30:42,070 --> 00:30:40,399
and i just you know very gently

810
00:30:43,990 --> 00:30:42,080
basically said well david i really don't

811
00:30:45,830 --> 00:30:44,000
think that's the case well actually no

812
00:30:48,070 --> 00:30:45,840
and it's sort of like that and then

813
00:30:50,710 --> 00:30:48,080
eventually uh he had he had these two

814
00:30:53,029 --> 00:30:50,720
women bodyguards and they were very much

815
00:30:55,029 --> 00:30:53,039
like thumper and bambi from one of the

816
00:30:56,630 --> 00:30:55,039
early you know bond films i think i

817
00:30:58,230 --> 00:30:56,640
would try i think it maybe it's uh

818
00:30:59,990 --> 00:30:58,240
diamonds on forever or something like

819
00:31:01,909 --> 00:31:00,000
that and they basically come over and

820
00:31:03,830 --> 00:31:01,919
said you know david's very tired it's

821
00:31:05,590 --> 00:31:03,840
probably time you should go home and

822
00:31:07,830 --> 00:31:05,600
they walked me out of the place and then

823
00:31:09,510 --> 00:31:07,840
i later realized like what actually he

824
00:31:11,350 --> 00:31:09,520
was doing is that he had read some stuff

825
00:31:12,310 --> 00:31:11,360
that wilson had written about somebody

826
00:31:14,310 --> 00:31:12,320
else

827
00:31:16,070 --> 00:31:14,320
and that's mushing it together in his

828
00:31:17,590 --> 00:31:16,080
head and saying it's about wilson so i

829
00:31:19,830 --> 00:31:17,600
think there's lots of people who take on

830
00:31:21,110 --> 00:31:19,840
this stuff and as most artists do in

831
00:31:22,789 --> 00:31:21,120
different ways they they look for

832
00:31:24,070 --> 00:31:22,799
inspiration in different kinds of things

833
00:31:25,909 --> 00:31:24,080
and they'll get something out of it and

834
00:31:27,510 --> 00:31:25,919
then they move on to something else i

835
00:31:29,350 --> 00:31:27,520
mean like jagger and the rolling stones

836
00:31:32,389 --> 00:31:29,360
he was interested in your cult for a

837
00:31:34,470 --> 00:31:32,399
while at sort of the late 60s 68 69 but

838
00:31:36,549 --> 00:31:34,480
then after altamont when when the whole

839
00:31:38,470 --> 00:31:36,559
hippie dream just went down the tubes he

840
00:31:40,549 --> 00:31:38,480
dropped it very quickly i i think the

841
00:31:42,230 --> 00:31:40,559
real serious sort of people don't talk a

842
00:31:43,750 --> 00:31:42,240
lot about it because that's part of it

843
00:31:46,149 --> 00:31:43,760
that's part of the seriousness about it

844
00:31:48,310 --> 00:31:46,159
is not talking a lot about it right you

845
00:31:50,710 --> 00:31:48,320
have someone like jimmy page who even

846
00:31:54,710 --> 00:31:50,720
though he never talks about this subject

847
00:31:55,830 --> 00:31:54,720
uh is known to be extremely adept and it

848
00:31:57,830 --> 00:31:55,840
has

849
00:32:00,149 --> 00:31:57,840
well as far as curly goes he's probably

850
00:32:02,310 --> 00:32:00,159
one of the top collectors of corliana

851
00:32:04,710 --> 00:32:02,320
and curly memorabilia

852
00:32:07,269 --> 00:32:04,720
and there's others too that

853
00:32:09,669 --> 00:32:07,279
you don't care about near as much that

854
00:32:11,669 --> 00:32:09,679
that i actually really are

855
00:32:13,350 --> 00:32:11,679
very very passionate about the subject

856
00:32:15,350 --> 00:32:13,360
and are very active

857
00:32:18,149 --> 00:32:15,360
in it but i think like you're saying

858
00:32:19,269 --> 00:32:18,159
most of it's kind of fadish and passing

859
00:32:21,590 --> 00:32:19,279
interest

860
00:32:24,070 --> 00:32:21,600
for instance bowie when he was really

861
00:32:25,590 --> 00:32:24,080
strung out on cocaine in la was was

862
00:32:27,750 --> 00:32:25,600
actually losing his

863
00:32:31,509 --> 00:32:27,760
his marbles uh

864
00:32:33,669 --> 00:32:31,519
over paranoia induced by by his study of

865
00:32:36,310 --> 00:32:33,679
the occult so anyway i thought i'd bring

866
00:32:38,310 --> 00:32:36,320
that up because i do uh i do have more

867
00:32:40,470 --> 00:32:38,320
than a passing interest in the subject

868
00:32:42,389 --> 00:32:40,480
and i actually have the only surviving

869
00:32:43,830 --> 00:32:42,399
book from crowley's library that was

870
00:32:46,149 --> 00:32:43,840
supposed to be burnt

871
00:32:48,070 --> 00:32:46,159
upon his death i just

872
00:32:50,310 --> 00:32:48,080
happened

873
00:32:52,389 --> 00:32:50,320
to come into custodial ship of this

874
00:32:53,990 --> 00:32:52,399
particular work

875
00:32:57,110 --> 00:32:54,000
what what book is it

876
00:33:00,549 --> 00:32:57,120
that's the author's proof copy is zero

877
00:33:02,549 --> 00:33:00,559
of the first 200 of the book of thoth oh

878
00:33:04,389 --> 00:33:02,559
fantastic my god i mean that's something

879
00:33:06,230 --> 00:33:04,399
jimmy page would would be coming after

880
00:33:08,230 --> 00:33:06,240
you to get as far as well

881
00:33:10,310 --> 00:33:08,240
you know one would think but we've my

882
00:33:13,509 --> 00:33:10,320
brother and i had it from i think we got

883
00:33:16,070 --> 00:33:13,519
it in 83 or 4 and uh we've been

884
00:33:17,830 --> 00:33:16,080
very faithfully keeping it in safe hands

885
00:33:19,590 --> 00:33:17,840
and the pagination is completely

886
00:33:22,549 --> 00:33:19,600
different from all the other books which

887
00:33:24,310 --> 00:33:22,559
i think anyone who knows anything about

888
00:33:27,110 --> 00:33:24,320
uh

889
00:33:28,950 --> 00:33:27,120
you know gematria and and

890
00:33:30,630 --> 00:33:28,960
the attributional qualities of numbers

891
00:33:31,590 --> 00:33:30,640
that's very important because it does

892
00:33:33,430 --> 00:33:31,600
link

893
00:33:35,590 --> 00:33:33,440
that particular book directly back to

894
00:33:37,590 --> 00:33:35,600
the book of the law and there's a cipher

895
00:33:39,509 --> 00:33:37,600
that's uh pretty amazing in there and i

896
00:33:41,269 --> 00:33:39,519
probably shouldn't be talking about this

897
00:33:42,549 --> 00:33:41,279
on youtube but let me ask you a quick

898
00:33:45,110 --> 00:33:42,559
question chris

899
00:33:46,149 --> 00:33:45,120
if jimmy page sent you an email and said

900
00:33:49,110 --> 00:33:46,159
chris

901
00:33:53,430 --> 00:33:50,710
jimmy page would never do that number

902
00:33:56,870 --> 00:33:53,440
one he's a real cheapskate

903
00:34:00,630 --> 00:33:58,710
well we've turned down twenty eight

904
00:34:02,549 --> 00:34:00,640
thousand well at least we have a range

905
00:34:04,389 --> 00:34:02,559
there i mean you have your price though

906
00:34:06,710 --> 00:34:04,399
it's just a question it's it's priceless

907
00:34:08,230 --> 00:34:06,720
to the right person there is no price on

908
00:34:09,109 --> 00:34:08,240
it and the book is not for sale i would

909
00:34:11,589 --> 00:34:09,119
never

910
00:34:13,750 --> 00:34:11,599
ever use the word sale or sell in

911
00:34:16,230 --> 00:34:13,760
conjunction with that book i will be

912
00:34:18,550 --> 00:34:16,240
handsomely rewarded for my very faithful

913
00:34:21,109 --> 00:34:18,560
custodial ship of a very important

914
00:34:22,149 --> 00:34:21,119
magical item the book will never be sold

915
00:34:23,589 --> 00:34:22,159
i i'm

916
00:34:25,669 --> 00:34:23,599
i know a little bit too much about the

917
00:34:28,389 --> 00:34:25,679
subject matter to even

918
00:34:30,790 --> 00:34:28,399
consider that as even a possibility gary

919
00:34:31,829 --> 00:34:30,800
let's move from rock and roll to colin

920
00:34:34,869 --> 00:34:31,839
wilson

921
00:34:36,950 --> 00:34:34,879
all right he's not a household name

922
00:34:39,589 --> 00:34:36,960
so maybe tell us something about his

923
00:34:41,270 --> 00:34:39,599
background and more about the things

924
00:34:43,510 --> 00:34:41,280
that attracted you to his work you did

925
00:34:45,510 --> 00:34:43,520
meet him at some point in time right

926
00:34:47,589 --> 00:34:45,520
yes well uh at one point he was sort of

927
00:34:50,069 --> 00:34:47,599
a household name but that's 60 years ago

928
00:34:51,669 --> 00:34:50,079
the outside yeah his first book uh it's

929
00:34:53,430 --> 00:34:51,679
called the outsider and it was published

930
00:34:56,230 --> 00:34:53,440
in 1956

931
00:34:59,990 --> 00:34:56,240
and it was a surprise bestseller

932
00:35:01,030 --> 00:35:00,000
on both sides of the atlantic he um is

933
00:35:03,510 --> 00:35:01,040
a brit

934
00:35:05,589 --> 00:35:03,520
he grew up in the industrial midlands

935
00:35:07,670 --> 00:35:05,599
lester city called lester whose football

936
00:35:09,270 --> 00:35:07,680
team surprisingly won the you know big

937
00:35:11,030 --> 00:35:09,280
big prize last year

938
00:35:14,470 --> 00:35:11,040
uh and um

939
00:35:16,630 --> 00:35:14,480
uh he basically you know he he he worked

940
00:35:19,270 --> 00:35:16,640
for years at all these different menial

941
00:35:21,030 --> 00:35:19,280
kinds of jobs he refused to sort of

942
00:35:23,589 --> 00:35:21,040
succumb to the system

943
00:35:25,510 --> 00:35:23,599
and he had an overpowering desire to

944
00:35:27,670 --> 00:35:25,520
like not to sort of fight off this kind

945
00:35:30,069 --> 00:35:27,680
of boredom this kind of lethargy this

946
00:35:32,310 --> 00:35:30,079
kind of sleep that he felt that most of

947
00:35:34,950 --> 00:35:32,320
the people around him were in and what

948
00:35:37,190 --> 00:35:34,960
he what he did he had a great profound

949
00:35:38,630 --> 00:35:37,200
belief in his own brilliance and genius

950
00:35:41,589 --> 00:35:38,640
and then for years he worked at becoming

951
00:35:43,670 --> 00:35:41,599
a writer and as i said he he would move

952
00:35:46,150 --> 00:35:43,680
from job to job you know digging ditches

953
00:35:47,030 --> 00:35:46,160
washing dishes being a hospital porter

954
00:35:49,670 --> 00:35:47,040
you know

955
00:35:51,510 --> 00:35:49,680
being a busboy and a calf and all this

956
00:35:54,150 --> 00:35:51,520
kind of thing and wrote and wrote and

957
00:35:56,470 --> 00:35:54,160
wrote what happened is that he wrote

958
00:35:58,550 --> 00:35:56,480
this book about characters like himself

959
00:36:00,069 --> 00:35:58,560
who are on the outside of society

960
00:36:01,910 --> 00:36:00,079
who were seeking something deeper and

961
00:36:04,390 --> 00:36:01,920
more meaningful than the sort of

962
00:36:06,630 --> 00:36:04,400
button-down uh nine-to-five you know

963
00:36:07,430 --> 00:36:06,640
bourgeois world that was available to

964
00:36:10,069 --> 00:36:07,440
them

965
00:36:11,829 --> 00:36:10,079
and he handed it in part of it to a

966
00:36:13,430 --> 00:36:11,839
publisher here who immediately

967
00:36:15,430 --> 00:36:13,440
recognized that this was a brilliant

968
00:36:17,510 --> 00:36:15,440
work and then when it was published in

969
00:36:19,510 --> 00:36:17,520
may of 1956

970
00:36:21,990 --> 00:36:19,520
it was an overnight success he woke up

971
00:36:24,550 --> 00:36:22,000
the next morning he was 24 years old as

972
00:36:26,310 --> 00:36:24,560
a young man and his first book was an

973
00:36:29,030 --> 00:36:26,320
overnight success and all of the all of

974
00:36:31,109 --> 00:36:29,040
the top sort of highbrow book reviewers

975
00:36:32,950 --> 00:36:31,119
of the day people like cyril connolly

976
00:36:34,069 --> 00:36:32,960
who's still known uh you know to people

977
00:36:35,430 --> 00:36:34,079
who are you know familiar with english

978
00:36:37,589 --> 00:36:35,440
literature he was he was a friend of

979
00:36:40,069 --> 00:36:37,599
orwell and huxley and all that crowd and

980
00:36:43,190 --> 00:36:40,079
was a big name and phillip toynbee edith

981
00:36:44,390 --> 00:36:43,200
sitwell jb priestly all these wonderful

982
00:36:45,670 --> 00:36:44,400
very important writers who are singing

983
00:36:47,910 --> 00:36:45,680
his praises

984
00:36:50,150 --> 00:36:47,920
we've got more to come with gary lachman

985
00:36:59,109 --> 00:36:50,160
and gene and chris you're in the

986
00:37:03,230 --> 00:37:02,310
thank you for listening to gcn

987
00:37:07,589 --> 00:37:03,240
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988
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990
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991
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1010
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1011
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1012
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1054
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1094
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and you are listening to the paracast

1096
00:41:37,270 --> 00:41:34,950
so we're painting the background here

1097
00:41:38,790 --> 00:41:37,280
the early days of colin wilson

1098
00:41:42,150 --> 00:41:38,800
where he suddenly

1099
00:41:44,550 --> 00:41:42,160
overnight becomes a best-selling author

1100
00:41:47,109 --> 00:41:44,560
and that self for a guy of 24 has got to

1101
00:41:48,870 --> 00:41:47,119
be a pretty big deal a huge deal oh

1102
00:41:50,950 --> 00:41:48,880
absolutely and the strange thing was

1103
00:41:53,349 --> 00:41:50,960
that the book was about

1104
00:41:56,390 --> 00:41:53,359
what he says uh alienation

1105
00:41:59,349 --> 00:41:56,400
creativity and extreme mental states it

1106
00:42:02,309 --> 00:41:59,359
was about these strange um characters

1107
00:42:03,030 --> 00:42:02,319
who lived on on the outskirts of society

1108
00:42:04,470 --> 00:42:03,040
and

1109
00:42:06,230 --> 00:42:04,480
one of the things that was really

1110
00:42:07,670 --> 00:42:06,240
influential about the book was that it

1111
00:42:09,030 --> 00:42:07,680
talked about people that at the time

1112
00:42:10,630 --> 00:42:09,040
nobody knew about who sometimes

1113
00:42:12,470 --> 00:42:10,640
currently became very very popular

1114
00:42:14,870 --> 00:42:12,480
people like herman hesse who was the

1115
00:42:16,470 --> 00:42:14,880
german writer whose novels i i grew up

1116
00:42:18,069 --> 00:42:16,480
reading the 70s and then they they

1117
00:42:21,349 --> 00:42:18,079
became really big in the late 60s and

1118
00:42:23,910 --> 00:42:21,359
then in the 70s and all that and um also

1119
00:42:27,190 --> 00:42:23,920
uh gorgeous who's this enigmatic

1120
00:42:28,790 --> 00:42:27,200
armenian russian uh esoteric teacher but

1121
00:42:30,309 --> 00:42:28,800
he's also talking about existentialism

1122
00:42:31,670 --> 00:42:30,319
and people like jean-paul sartre and

1123
00:42:33,670 --> 00:42:31,680
albert camus

1124
00:42:36,230 --> 00:42:33,680
and all of these kind of strange

1125
00:42:37,510 --> 00:42:36,240
characters that are driven by this need

1126
00:42:38,790 --> 00:42:37,520
to have a kind of deeper sense of

1127
00:42:40,470 --> 00:42:38,800
meaning and purpose and this became a

1128
00:42:41,910 --> 00:42:40,480
bestseller but then what happened was

1129
00:42:44,309 --> 00:42:41,920
that he got caught up in what was called

1130
00:42:45,750 --> 00:42:44,319
the angry young men craze and this was

1131
00:42:47,910 --> 00:42:45,760
sort of the british

1132
00:42:49,510 --> 00:42:47,920
kind of version of the beat generation

1133
00:42:51,270 --> 00:42:49,520
these were these writers who were

1134
00:42:54,390 --> 00:42:51,280
basically you know dropping out of

1135
00:42:55,910 --> 00:42:54,400
society and you know basically

1136
00:42:57,430 --> 00:42:55,920
what most of them were talking about

1137
00:42:58,390 --> 00:42:57,440
were these social issues but wilson was

1138
00:43:00,390 --> 00:42:58,400
interested in something that was much

1139
00:43:02,950 --> 00:43:00,400
more of a kind of a spiritual mystical

1140
00:43:04,710 --> 00:43:02,960
kind of experience in any case

1141
00:43:06,710 --> 00:43:04,720
all this stuff got a lot of press at the

1142
00:43:08,230 --> 00:43:06,720
time uh and it was in the sunday

1143
00:43:09,990 --> 00:43:08,240
supplements and it was in the news all

1144
00:43:11,589 --> 00:43:10,000
the time and you have to say this is 56

1145
00:43:13,990 --> 00:43:11,599
it's around the same time that elvis was

1146
00:43:16,630 --> 00:43:14,000
becoming popular and james dean had just

1147
00:43:17,910 --> 00:43:16,640
passed away not too long ago so there's

1148
00:43:19,670 --> 00:43:17,920
the kind of media craze that we're

1149
00:43:21,349 --> 00:43:19,680
familiar with now was something that was

1150
00:43:24,870 --> 00:43:21,359
new was happening and he got caught up

1151
00:43:26,710 --> 00:43:24,880
in it and as happens here often um the

1152
00:43:28,309 --> 00:43:26,720
brits really like a success story but

1153
00:43:30,390 --> 00:43:28,319
then they like they also like it when it

1154
00:43:32,309 --> 00:43:30,400
turns around and and you're brought down

1155
00:43:33,910 --> 00:43:32,319
and so a few months after his and

1156
00:43:36,150 --> 00:43:33,920
everyone was singing his praises he was

1157
00:43:38,470 --> 00:43:36,160
turned uh they turned against him and he

1158
00:43:40,950 --> 00:43:38,480
became persona non grata and basically

1159
00:43:42,230 --> 00:43:40,960
he left london and moved to the far west

1160
00:43:43,990 --> 00:43:42,240
of england which is cornwall the

1161
00:43:45,349 --> 00:43:44,000
furthest furthest tip down down near

1162
00:43:47,030 --> 00:43:45,359
penzance you know where the pirates are

1163
00:43:49,349 --> 00:43:47,040
from and all that well yeah ask your

1164
00:43:51,670 --> 00:43:49,359
question here about fleeting fame though

1165
00:43:54,470 --> 00:43:51,680
did he do anything or say anything or is

1166
00:43:56,550 --> 00:43:54,480
it just people decided well it wasn't so

1167
00:43:58,390 --> 00:43:56,560
great after all what he wrote well i

1168
00:44:00,630 --> 00:43:58,400
think the thing with him was that he's a

1169
00:44:02,550 --> 00:44:00,640
young man uh he had spent 10 years

1170
00:44:03,670 --> 00:44:02,560
learning how to write he confided in his

1171
00:44:05,430 --> 00:44:03,680
journal

1172
00:44:07,349 --> 00:44:05,440
you know how much he believed in himself

1173
00:44:09,430 --> 00:44:07,359
and his genius and all that then when he

1174
00:44:11,270 --> 00:44:09,440
woke up that morning and everybody else

1175
00:44:13,030 --> 00:44:11,280
agreed with him you know all the

1176
00:44:14,069 --> 00:44:13,040
newspapers were saying yes colin you're

1177
00:44:15,910 --> 00:44:14,079
right

1178
00:44:17,670 --> 00:44:15,920
he was very naive and very candid and

1179
00:44:19,190 --> 00:44:17,680
when he would be talking you know in

1180
00:44:20,630 --> 00:44:19,200
interviews he would he would just sort

1181
00:44:21,829 --> 00:44:20,640
of say you know yes you know well

1182
00:44:23,510 --> 00:44:21,839
actually you know i have to believe in

1183
00:44:24,550 --> 00:44:23,520
myself and yes and he was doing the kind

1184
00:44:26,069 --> 00:44:24,560
of thing that english you're not

1185
00:44:27,670 --> 00:44:26,079
supposed to do you're supposed to be

1186
00:44:28,790 --> 00:44:27,680
rather humble and modest about your

1187
00:44:30,150 --> 00:44:28,800
achievements you're not supposed to

1188
00:44:32,630 --> 00:44:30,160
you're not supposed to draw attention to

1189
00:44:35,430 --> 00:44:32,640
yourself and also there was a backlash i

1190
00:44:37,270 --> 00:44:35,440
think because he was a working class

1191
00:44:38,950 --> 00:44:37,280
writer he came out of this his father

1192
00:44:40,950 --> 00:44:38,960
worked in a boot and shoe factory and

1193
00:44:42,309 --> 00:44:40,960
earned like you know three pounds a week

1194
00:44:44,309 --> 00:44:42,319
during the 30s

1195
00:44:46,790 --> 00:44:44,319
he was definitely working class

1196
00:44:48,390 --> 00:44:46,800
and he was criticizing the system

1197
00:44:50,550 --> 00:44:48,400
and in england

1198
00:44:52,950 --> 00:44:50,560
the system doesn't mind being criticized

1199
00:44:55,190 --> 00:44:52,960
if it's done by one of its members so if

1200
00:44:56,470 --> 00:44:55,200
an aldous huxley let's say or an orwell

1201
00:44:58,230 --> 00:44:56,480
or something like that who's part of

1202
00:45:00,150 --> 00:44:58,240
kind of like you know the upper class

1203
00:45:01,349 --> 00:45:00,160
more or less does it that's okay but

1204
00:45:02,950 --> 00:45:01,359
they don't like if somebody from the

1205
00:45:05,030 --> 00:45:02,960
working class is doing it and then

1206
00:45:06,630 --> 00:45:05,040
wilson also was not a university kid he

1207
00:45:09,030 --> 00:45:06,640
didn't go to university he left school

1208
00:45:09,990 --> 00:45:09,040
and he was 16 after an aborted suicide

1209
00:45:12,069 --> 00:45:10,000
attempt

1210
00:45:14,069 --> 00:45:12,079
and hitchhiked around england hitchhiked

1211
00:45:16,069 --> 00:45:14,079
around france slept rough all the time

1212
00:45:18,550 --> 00:45:16,079
and red and red and red and red so he

1213
00:45:21,109 --> 00:45:18,560
kind of came out of the cold and i think

1214
00:45:23,510 --> 00:45:21,119
people felt a little embarrassed after

1215
00:45:24,630 --> 00:45:23,520
singing his praises at first and then

1216
00:45:27,589 --> 00:45:24,640
what had happened was that he was

1217
00:45:29,750 --> 00:45:27,599
getting too much publicity um because he

1218
00:45:31,430 --> 00:45:29,760
was he was kind of like a literary elvis

1219
00:45:33,190 --> 00:45:31,440
in a way he was kind of like a pop star

1220
00:45:34,790 --> 00:45:33,200
and he found himself in the company of

1221
00:45:37,349 --> 00:45:34,800
people like marilyn monroe on one

1222
00:45:39,829 --> 00:45:37,359
occasion and lawrence olivier uh and

1223
00:45:41,109 --> 00:45:39,839
other actors uh because of his fame he

1224
00:45:42,630 --> 00:45:41,119
was he was being invited to these

1225
00:45:44,150 --> 00:45:42,640
parties and things like that and so on

1226
00:45:46,150 --> 00:45:44,160
and so he's winding up in the papers a

1227
00:45:48,309 --> 00:45:46,160
lot and i think you know the idea was

1228
00:45:49,829 --> 00:45:48,319
like well um he can't really be that

1229
00:45:51,750 --> 00:45:49,839
serious of a writer if he's you know

1230
00:45:52,870 --> 00:45:51,760
turning up in the sunday supplements all

1231
00:45:55,270 --> 00:45:52,880
the time and there's all this kind of

1232
00:45:56,390 --> 00:45:55,280
stuff going on there was a lot of

1233
00:45:58,470 --> 00:45:56,400
the other thing that happened is that

1234
00:46:00,069 --> 00:45:58,480
the press kind of invented this

1235
00:46:01,670 --> 00:46:00,079
you know the press invented this this

1236
00:46:04,069 --> 00:46:01,680
angry oh man thing going on because

1237
00:46:05,589 --> 00:46:04,079
there was not much happening at the time

1238
00:46:07,750 --> 00:46:05,599
and so you know they build something up

1239
00:46:09,190 --> 00:46:07,760
and then they then they knock it down so

1240
00:46:11,190 --> 00:46:09,200
he got caught up in that but what

1241
00:46:13,589 --> 00:46:11,200
happened to him rather than the other

1242
00:46:15,829 --> 00:46:13,599
riders uh many of them stopped writing

1243
00:46:17,750 --> 00:46:15,839
he just kept doing oh my god he wrote

1244
00:46:19,670 --> 00:46:17,760
over 50 books i think that needed

1245
00:46:22,870 --> 00:46:19,680
probably even more than that wrote over

1246
00:46:25,190 --> 00:46:22,880
100 100 there you go

1247
00:46:26,710 --> 00:46:25,200
i mean talk about a guy that could crank

1248
00:46:29,510 --> 00:46:26,720
it out

1249
00:46:31,349 --> 00:46:29,520
yeah absolutely edited a number of books

1250
00:46:33,349 --> 00:46:31,359
and co-authored a number of books as

1251
00:46:35,190 --> 00:46:33,359
well the goblin universe the ted

1252
00:46:36,390 --> 00:46:35,200
holliday book is one of my all-time

1253
00:46:38,470 --> 00:46:36,400
favorites and

1254
00:46:40,790 --> 00:46:38,480
and he wrote an extensive beginning to

1255
00:46:41,910 --> 00:46:40,800
that because uh holiday actually died

1256
00:46:43,430 --> 00:46:41,920
before the book came out and it was

1257
00:46:44,230 --> 00:46:43,440
never actually supposed to be published

1258
00:46:48,390 --> 00:46:44,240
and

1259
00:46:50,069 --> 00:46:48,400
very important book that not many people

1260
00:46:52,230 --> 00:46:50,079
really are aware of

1261
00:46:54,150 --> 00:46:52,240
i've got a number of his books

1262
00:46:56,309 --> 00:46:54,160
is this this is the goblin universe i

1263
00:46:57,910 --> 00:46:56,319
think the goblin universe

1264
00:46:59,750 --> 00:46:57,920
wilson was instrumental in getting that

1265
00:47:01,670 --> 00:46:59,760
book published i mean he

1266
00:47:03,589 --> 00:47:01,680
he put it together i mean

1267
00:47:05,910 --> 00:47:03,599
he's had a very long career

1268
00:47:08,390 --> 00:47:05,920
um so he went from being sort of really

1269
00:47:09,990 --> 00:47:08,400
well known to being a kind of pariah and

1270
00:47:12,150 --> 00:47:10,000
then he had a comeback in the early 70s

1271
00:47:14,069 --> 00:47:12,160
because he wrote a book about the occult

1272
00:47:16,790 --> 00:47:14,079
and the occult had become

1273
00:47:17,910 --> 00:47:16,800
very popular again in the mid 60s um

1274
00:47:20,069 --> 00:47:17,920
there was a book called the morning of

1275
00:47:21,990 --> 00:47:20,079
the magicians that came out in the early

1276
00:47:25,109 --> 00:47:22,000
60s and this kind of kicked off what's

1277
00:47:27,349 --> 00:47:25,119
known as the occult revival of the 1960s

1278
00:47:29,190 --> 00:47:27,359
and by the mid by the mid 60s you have

1279
00:47:31,190 --> 00:47:29,200
the most famous people in the world like

1280
00:47:33,270 --> 00:47:31,200
the beatles and then the second most

1281
00:47:35,190 --> 00:47:33,280
famous the rolling stones getting

1282
00:47:36,710 --> 00:47:35,200
interested in all this kind of stuff uh

1283
00:47:37,670 --> 00:47:36,720
crowley's on the cover of sergeant

1284
00:47:40,069 --> 00:47:37,680
peppers

1285
00:47:41,510 --> 00:47:40,079
and and so on and so on people like jung

1286
00:47:43,109 --> 00:47:41,520
aljus huxley who wrote doors of

1287
00:47:44,790 --> 00:47:43,119
perception which was about you know use

1288
00:47:46,870 --> 00:47:44,800
of masculine and all that

1289
00:47:48,069 --> 00:47:46,880
so but at the end of the 60s wilson is

1290
00:47:49,589 --> 00:47:48,079
asked to write this book about the

1291
00:47:51,109 --> 00:47:49,599
occult and he's really not interested in

1292
00:47:52,950 --> 00:47:51,119
it he's always you know kind of read it

1293
00:47:54,230 --> 00:47:52,960
it was fun you know reads but he didn't

1294
00:47:56,470 --> 00:47:54,240
take it seriously he was a serious

1295
00:47:58,150 --> 00:47:56,480
philosopher and you know so on and all

1296
00:48:00,150 --> 00:47:58,160
that but then when he did the research

1297
00:48:02,150 --> 00:48:00,160
he realized oh my god actually

1298
00:48:04,069 --> 00:48:02,160
there's as much evidence here for the

1299
00:48:06,470 --> 00:48:04,079
validity of this as there is for like

1300
00:48:07,910 --> 00:48:06,480
neutrinos or protons or whatever you

1301
00:48:10,309 --> 00:48:07,920
want to call these weird things that you

1302
00:48:12,150 --> 00:48:10,319
know elementary physicists find and so

1303
00:48:13,190 --> 00:48:12,160
he wrote this book and it brought him

1304
00:48:15,270 --> 00:48:13,200
out of the cold again it was a

1305
00:48:16,390 --> 00:48:15,280
bestseller and it's what introduced me

1306
00:48:18,069 --> 00:48:16,400
to this whole

1307
00:48:18,950 --> 00:48:18,079
topic and also introduced lots of other

1308
00:48:20,790 --> 00:48:18,960
people

1309
00:48:22,870 --> 00:48:20,800
yeah yeah including me that was my first

1310
00:48:23,990 --> 00:48:22,880
wilson book that i read the first one i

1311
00:48:26,549 --> 00:48:24,000
got too

1312
00:48:28,309 --> 00:48:26,559
now just to point things out here we're

1313
00:48:30,470 --> 00:48:28,319
three years too late on interviewing him

1314
00:48:33,190 --> 00:48:30,480
he died in 2013

1315
00:48:35,829 --> 00:48:33,200
but was in really bad health from

1316
00:48:37,990 --> 00:48:35,839
2011 on but i also noticed he wrote a

1317
00:48:38,790 --> 00:48:38,000
lot of fiction

1318
00:48:40,390 --> 00:48:38,800
yes

1319
00:48:41,829 --> 00:48:40,400
uh he wrote he wrote quite a few novels

1320
00:48:43,750 --> 00:48:41,839
and they're very good reads i mean in

1321
00:48:45,829 --> 00:48:43,760
fact just recently i i gave a talk at

1322
00:48:47,349 --> 00:48:45,839
the british museum here in london which

1323
00:48:49,349 --> 00:48:47,359
is you know it's it's like the match

1324
00:48:51,270 --> 00:48:49,359
it's like a huge museum pretty

1325
00:48:53,030 --> 00:48:51,280
prestigious gig there guy yeah

1326
00:48:54,950 --> 00:48:53,040
absolutely well thank you very much i

1327
00:48:57,109 --> 00:48:54,960
told the story of like

1328
00:48:59,349 --> 00:48:57,119
what he used to do at one point to save

1329
00:49:00,950 --> 00:48:59,359
money he didn't he didn't there was one

1330
00:49:04,150 --> 00:49:00,960
summer where he didn't rent a room

1331
00:49:06,150 --> 00:49:04,160
somewhere this is 1954. he's about 22.

1332
00:49:08,950 --> 00:49:06,160
what he did was he got us waterproof

1333
00:49:11,430 --> 00:49:08,960
sleeping bag and he would sleep up uh

1334
00:49:12,950 --> 00:49:11,440
there's this big open patch of green

1335
00:49:14,710 --> 00:49:12,960
land at the north of london here called

1336
00:49:16,309 --> 00:49:14,720
the hampstead heath and it's like a

1337
00:49:18,630 --> 00:49:16,319
wonderful like you know kind of huge

1338
00:49:21,910 --> 00:49:18,640
park and he would sleep there at night

1339
00:49:23,829 --> 00:49:21,920
then cycle down and write during the day

1340
00:49:25,510 --> 00:49:23,839
at the british museum and what what used

1341
00:49:27,750 --> 00:49:25,520
to be the old reading room where people

1342
00:49:28,790 --> 00:49:27,760
like marx and bernard shaw and h.g wells

1343
00:49:29,670 --> 00:49:28,800
had worked

1344
00:49:31,750 --> 00:49:29,680
and

1345
00:49:33,349 --> 00:49:31,760
while he was this is before he was

1346
00:49:35,510 --> 00:49:33,359
working on the outsider he wrote he

1347
00:49:37,589 --> 00:49:35,520
wrote a novel called ritual in the dark

1348
00:49:39,670 --> 00:49:37,599
which is a kind of existential thriller

1349
00:49:42,309 --> 00:49:39,680
and it's best described as jack the

1350
00:49:45,990 --> 00:49:42,319
ripper meets the brothers karamazov in

1351
00:49:49,109 --> 00:49:46,000
post-war london um because it it

1352
00:49:52,230 --> 00:49:49,119
it uses the sort of the theme of the

1353
00:49:54,390 --> 00:49:52,240
ripper murders to to uh investigate

1354
00:49:56,150 --> 00:49:54,400
questions of freedom and purpose

1355
00:49:57,510 --> 00:49:56,160
and consciousness and all these kinds of

1356
00:49:59,109 --> 00:49:57,520
things and then he went on to write many

1357
00:50:00,950 --> 00:49:59,119
many other novels one of one of his best

1358
00:50:02,950 --> 00:50:00,960
is called the mind parasites

1359
00:50:04,710 --> 00:50:02,960
which is the science fiction novel about

1360
00:50:06,230 --> 00:50:04,720
these kind of psychic vampires living

1361
00:50:08,390 --> 00:50:06,240
living in the mind

1362
00:50:10,150 --> 00:50:08,400
uh and they've been sucking human you

1363
00:50:12,790 --> 00:50:10,160
know vitality dry

1364
00:50:14,680 --> 00:50:12,800
for centuries um and it sounds like the

1365
00:50:16,950 --> 00:50:14,690
u.s uh political system

1366
00:50:20,150 --> 00:50:16,960
[Laughter]

1367
00:50:23,589 --> 00:50:20,160
oh well uh oh chris is mentioning the p

1368
00:50:28,309 --> 00:50:26,230
many minds left there to suck dry so

1369
00:50:30,150 --> 00:50:28,319
they've done a damn good job because uh

1370
00:50:32,710 --> 00:50:30,160
america is now filled with the largest

1371
00:50:35,349 --> 00:50:32,720
concentration of people in waking coma

1372
00:50:36,790 --> 00:50:35,359
that probably have ever existed so

1373
00:50:38,950 --> 00:50:36,800
they've done a great job they've sucked

1374
00:50:41,670 --> 00:50:38,960
the american public

1375
00:50:44,069 --> 00:50:41,680
dry so yeah so he wrote lots of fiction

1376
00:50:46,069 --> 00:50:44,079
and what he also did was um he was very

1377
00:50:47,670 --> 00:50:46,079
good at using sort of genre fiction for

1378
00:50:49,430 --> 00:50:47,680
his philosophical purposes so he wrote

1379
00:50:51,990 --> 00:50:49,440
in all different fields he wrote science

1380
00:50:54,309 --> 00:50:52,000
fiction he wrote crime novels he even

1381
00:50:55,670 --> 00:50:54,319
wrote sort of pornographic novels or

1382
00:50:58,710 --> 00:50:55,680
erotic novels and that's something

1383
00:51:00,790 --> 00:50:58,720
that's that's of great interest in um a

1384
00:51:02,630 --> 00:51:00,800
lot of his early work is sex sex is

1385
00:51:04,870 --> 00:51:02,640
something that well he thought about a

1386
00:51:06,870 --> 00:51:04,880
great deal to put it put it that way but

1387
00:51:09,670 --> 00:51:06,880
it's not lurid it's not kind of or it

1388
00:51:11,030 --> 00:51:09,680
isn't sort of titillating or even like

1389
00:51:13,829 --> 00:51:11,040
approaching pornography say like

1390
00:51:15,670 --> 00:51:13,839
somebody like henry miller uh is do he's

1391
00:51:17,109 --> 00:51:15,680
actually trying to analyze like what

1392
00:51:19,190 --> 00:51:17,119
because he's he's he's interested in

1393
00:51:22,710 --> 00:51:19,200
these these moments of intensity these

1394
00:51:23,990 --> 00:51:22,720
sort of power experiences uh the orgasm

1395
00:51:26,549 --> 00:51:24,000
is one of them but they also you know

1396
00:51:28,069 --> 00:51:26,559
you also get them from um you know uh

1397
00:51:30,390 --> 00:51:28,079
what he calls peak experiences he

1398
00:51:32,549 --> 00:51:30,400
borrows the term from the american

1399
00:51:35,510 --> 00:51:32,559
psychologist abram maslow let's do our

1400
00:51:38,150 --> 00:51:35,520
break here and go back with gary lachman

1401
00:51:48,950 --> 00:51:38,160
talking about colin wilson and morith

1402
00:51:53,390 --> 00:51:52,470
you are listening to gcn

1403
00:51:54,870 --> 00:51:53,400
visit

1404
00:51:57,670 --> 00:51:54,880
gcnlive.com today

1405
00:51:59,670 --> 00:51:57,680
[Music]

1406
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1407
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1408
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1409
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never forget

1410
00:52:09,430 --> 00:52:06,960
a former u.s military intelligence

1411
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officer is haunted by intense dreams

1412
00:52:14,390 --> 00:52:12,000
about a beautiful woman pleading for his

1413
00:52:15,430 --> 00:52:14,400
help after a terrible battle in outer

1414
00:52:17,589 --> 00:52:15,440
space

1415
00:52:19,510 --> 00:52:17,599
but the dreams turn out to be true and

1416
00:52:22,230 --> 00:52:19,520
thrust him into a telepathic love affair

1417
00:52:24,710 --> 00:52:22,240
with a woman whose far away planet is

1418
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intent on destroying the earth

1419
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1420
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1421
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1422
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1424
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1425
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1426
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1427
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1428
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1429
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1430
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1431
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1432
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1433
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1436
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1437
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1439
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1440
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1441
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1442
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1443
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1444
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1445
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1446
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1447
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1449
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1450
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1451
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1452
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1453
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1454
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1455
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1456
00:54:03,970 --> 00:53:56,480
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1457
00:54:09,829 --> 00:54:06,549
[Applause]

1458
00:54:13,510 --> 00:54:09,839
welcome back to the paracast the gold

1459
00:54:14,710 --> 00:54:13,520
standard of paranormal radio

1460
00:54:18,070 --> 00:54:14,720
and now

1461
00:54:21,510 --> 00:54:18,080
here's gene steinberg

1462
00:54:25,990 --> 00:54:23,910
so gary lochman you're talking about

1463
00:54:29,109 --> 00:54:26,000
colin wilson and his

1464
00:54:31,030 --> 00:54:29,119
focus and his books on sexuality

1465
00:54:33,829 --> 00:54:31,040
would you go on with that please

1466
00:54:36,549 --> 00:54:33,839
well sex is something that occupied uh

1467
00:54:38,950 --> 00:54:36,559
wilson's attention not only in you know

1468
00:54:40,630 --> 00:54:38,960
the usual way it does no when you say

1469
00:54:42,710 --> 00:54:40,640
usual do you mean they're repressed

1470
00:54:44,630 --> 00:54:42,720
english no no i mean the sense that you

1471
00:54:46,470 --> 00:54:44,640
know i mean i i i could imagine people

1472
00:54:48,230 --> 00:54:46,480
tutoring in the background but wow who's

1473
00:54:49,829 --> 00:54:48,240
whose attention isn't occupied by it but

1474
00:54:51,829 --> 00:54:49,839
you know what i mean you know as a young

1475
00:54:53,270 --> 00:54:51,839
man he was very interested in sex one of

1476
00:54:56,790 --> 00:54:53,280
the things that he

1477
00:54:59,990 --> 00:54:56,800
regrets or he says in his autobiography

1478
00:55:00,790 --> 00:55:00,000
is that um he was he was very devoted to

1479
00:55:05,990 --> 00:55:00,800
um

1480
00:55:07,190 --> 00:55:06,000
were together for god who knows forever

1481
00:55:09,750 --> 00:55:07,200
from 50

1482
00:55:12,390 --> 00:55:09,760
54 on or something like that until his

1483
00:55:15,270 --> 00:55:12,400
death so a very long time but he did

1484
00:55:17,990 --> 00:55:15,280
have ample opportunities to stray which

1485
00:55:19,750 --> 00:55:18,000
he um you know did not take but he was

1486
00:55:21,910 --> 00:55:19,760
always very interested in sex because he

1487
00:55:24,470 --> 00:55:21,920
wasn't interested in drugs or the drug

1488
00:55:27,190 --> 00:55:24,480
of his choice was alcohol and mostly red

1489
00:55:28,630 --> 00:55:27,200
wine so he wasn't really part of the 60s

1490
00:55:30,710 --> 00:55:28,640
kind of drug thing and he actually was

1491
00:55:33,030 --> 00:55:30,720
quite critical of it in some ways

1492
00:55:36,069 --> 00:55:33,040
but but sex was this kind of altered

1493
00:55:39,270 --> 00:55:36,079
state or this intensity experience that

1494
00:55:40,950 --> 00:55:39,280
was was a powerful one for him and in

1495
00:55:42,950 --> 00:55:40,960
his novels and in some of his

1496
00:55:45,589 --> 00:55:42,960
philosophical works

1497
00:55:47,750 --> 00:55:45,599
he um focuses on it a great deal and he

1498
00:55:50,230 --> 00:55:47,760
wrote a book in the early 60s called

1499
00:55:52,630 --> 00:55:50,240
origin of the sexual impulse

1500
00:55:54,470 --> 00:55:52,640
and yes it goes without saying that he's

1501
00:55:56,870 --> 00:55:54,480
looking at it from a male point of view

1502
00:55:58,150 --> 00:55:56,880
so it's it's a male point of view about

1503
00:56:00,390 --> 00:55:58,160
the sexual impulse but he's trying to

1504
00:56:02,710 --> 00:56:00,400
understand what what exactly is it what

1505
00:56:04,950 --> 00:56:02,720
exactly is it that drives and what what

1506
00:56:06,549 --> 00:56:04,960
is the nature of the sexual impulse and

1507
00:56:08,150 --> 00:56:06,559
the conclusion it comes to is it's got

1508
00:56:10,150 --> 00:56:08,160
much more to do with the mind much more

1509
00:56:12,710 --> 00:56:10,160
to do with imagination than it does in

1510
00:56:14,549 --> 00:56:12,720
any kind of simple physical response in

1511
00:56:16,549 --> 00:56:14,559
the same way say that hunger or thirst

1512
00:56:18,470 --> 00:56:16,559
is a kind of simple physical response

1513
00:56:20,309 --> 00:56:18,480
one of the insights he has which you

1514
00:56:22,710 --> 00:56:20,319
know depending on how you look at it may

1515
00:56:24,950 --> 00:56:22,720
seem impressive or may seem banal is

1516
00:56:27,270 --> 00:56:24,960
that where if we're hungry you can't

1517
00:56:28,870 --> 00:56:27,280
imagine a steak and actually eat it and

1518
00:56:31,109 --> 00:56:28,880
satisfy the hunger if you're thirsty you

1519
00:56:33,190 --> 00:56:31,119
can't imagine a glass of water and drink

1520
00:56:36,230 --> 00:56:33,200
it and satisfy the thirst but if you

1521
00:56:37,829 --> 00:56:36,240
feel sexually aroused you can imagine a

1522
00:56:39,430 --> 00:56:37,839
sexual partner

1523
00:56:41,109 --> 00:56:39,440
to which you can focus your sexual

1524
00:56:43,430 --> 00:56:41,119
attention and then bring yourself to a

1525
00:56:46,309 --> 00:56:43,440
satisfying conclusion right

1526
00:56:48,549 --> 00:56:46,319
many people do this very often so

1527
00:56:50,230 --> 00:56:48,559
sex must be something to do

1528
00:56:52,150 --> 00:56:50,240
at least as much with the mind and the

1529
00:56:54,950 --> 00:56:52,160
imagination as it does just with the

1530
00:56:56,870 --> 00:56:54,960
simple kind of physical bodily response

1531
00:56:59,510 --> 00:56:56,880
because it was simple bodily response

1532
00:57:01,829 --> 00:56:59,520
then you know we we would um not be able

1533
00:57:03,910 --> 00:57:01,839
to satisfy it in the same way that we

1534
00:57:06,950 --> 00:57:03,920
can with in the same way that we can't

1535
00:57:08,710 --> 00:57:06,960
satisfy hunger or or thirst in that way

1536
00:57:11,109 --> 00:57:08,720
and so it's from that beginning that he

1537
00:57:12,950 --> 00:57:11,119
looks and he's very good at analyzing

1538
00:57:14,069 --> 00:57:12,960
both his own experience and the accounts

1539
00:57:16,549 --> 00:57:14,079
of others experienced people like

1540
00:57:18,789 --> 00:57:16,559
kennedy miller or vladimir bolkov who

1541
00:57:21,270 --> 00:57:18,799
wrote lolita and a variety of other you

1542
00:57:23,750 --> 00:57:21,280
know people writing about d h lawrence

1543
00:57:25,109 --> 00:57:23,760
uh dasad uh and he writes really

1544
00:57:27,589 --> 00:57:25,119
brilliantly i think about victorian

1545
00:57:29,670 --> 00:57:27,599
pornography and how it is kind of a

1546
00:57:31,910 --> 00:57:29,680
weird sort of after growth of

1547
00:57:33,750 --> 00:57:31,920
romanticism in in a way it's a kind of

1548
00:57:35,670 --> 00:57:33,760
idealism in a way because it idealized

1549
00:57:38,390 --> 00:57:35,680
sex into something that is actually

1550
00:57:40,870 --> 00:57:38,400
much more intense than than it really is

1551
00:57:43,190 --> 00:57:40,880
right and of course he um you know being

1552
00:57:46,150 --> 00:57:43,200
born in the early 30s there was still a

1553
00:57:48,309 --> 00:57:46,160
little bit of a residual uh

1554
00:57:49,190 --> 00:57:48,319
kind of cultural um

1555
00:57:51,910 --> 00:57:49,200
sort of

1556
00:57:54,630 --> 00:57:51,920
tidewater flat of victorian england of

1557
00:57:57,030 --> 00:57:54,640
course probably sexually one of the most

1558
00:57:59,829 --> 00:57:57,040
repressed periods in history and

1559
00:58:01,910 --> 00:57:59,839
especially among the brits and i mean it

1560
00:58:03,510 --> 00:58:01,920
was so bad that um

1561
00:58:05,190 --> 00:58:03,520
i forget who

1562
00:58:07,109 --> 00:58:05,200
brought up this little quip on an

1563
00:58:10,150 --> 00:58:07,119
interview i heard but they would

1564
00:58:11,510 --> 00:58:10,160
actually dress the legs of pianos with

1565
00:58:13,670 --> 00:58:11,520
pant legs

1566
00:58:16,789 --> 00:58:13,680
uh because they felt that even the sight

1567
00:58:18,950 --> 00:58:16,799
of the leg of a piano might arouse uh

1568
00:58:21,510 --> 00:58:18,960
young boys

1569
00:58:23,670 --> 00:58:21,520
that's really going over the top well

1570
00:58:25,430 --> 00:58:23,680
that's absolutely true and uh i mean he

1571
00:58:27,910 --> 00:58:25,440
and exactly he was

1572
00:58:29,990 --> 00:58:27,920
coming out as a writer at a time when

1573
00:58:32,470 --> 00:58:30,000
there was still um

1574
00:58:35,030 --> 00:58:32,480
uh obscenity laws and censorship and

1575
00:58:36,470 --> 00:58:35,040
things of that sort i mean in fact at

1576
00:58:38,870 --> 00:58:36,480
one point

1577
00:58:40,549 --> 00:58:38,880
before he made it when he was hoboing

1578
00:58:41,510 --> 00:58:40,559
around in france and he ended up in

1579
00:58:43,829 --> 00:58:41,520
paris

1580
00:58:45,910 --> 00:58:43,839
he got a job trying to sell copies of

1581
00:58:49,030 --> 00:58:45,920
the paris review which was just getting

1582
00:58:50,549 --> 00:58:49,040
up at the time this is about 1952-53

1583
00:58:52,950 --> 00:58:50,559
uh it's it's since become you know one

1584
00:58:54,630 --> 00:58:52,960
of the most recognized literary journals

1585
00:58:56,390 --> 00:58:54,640
of all time and george plimpton was the

1586
00:58:58,549 --> 00:58:56,400
guy who started it you know let me just

1587
00:59:00,549 --> 00:58:58,559
tell you something really stupid back in

1588
00:59:03,190 --> 00:59:00,559
the 1970s

1589
00:59:04,390 --> 00:59:03,200
i worked for a typesetting plant in new

1590
00:59:06,150 --> 00:59:04,400
york city

1591
00:59:07,190 --> 00:59:06,160
and the paris review was one of our

1592
00:59:08,390 --> 00:59:07,200
clients

1593
00:59:11,910 --> 00:59:08,400
here you go

1594
00:59:13,829 --> 00:59:11,920
so i probably read lots of articles

1595
00:59:16,150 --> 00:59:13,839
unconsciously

1596
00:59:18,630 --> 00:59:16,160
and maybe absorbed a few

1597
00:59:20,309 --> 00:59:18,640
could very well could very well in

1598
00:59:22,870 --> 00:59:20,319
wilson's case the paris review was kind

1599
00:59:24,470 --> 00:59:22,880
of like the acceptable sort of literary

1600
00:59:26,870 --> 00:59:24,480
world that he had found himself in in

1601
00:59:29,829 --> 00:59:26,880
paris at the time but at the same time

1602
00:59:31,829 --> 00:59:29,839
he met um writers who were working for

1603
00:59:34,069 --> 00:59:31,839
this french publisher named maurice

1604
00:59:35,510 --> 00:59:34,079
gerodius who was responsible for for the

1605
00:59:37,030 --> 00:59:35,520
olympia press

1606
00:59:39,030 --> 00:59:37,040
and if you remember if you know what the

1607
00:59:41,030 --> 00:59:39,040
olympia press was olympia press was with

1608
00:59:44,150 --> 00:59:41,040
these books that you could not get

1609
00:59:46,309 --> 00:59:44,160
um over the channel um they've sold in

1610
00:59:49,190 --> 00:59:46,319
france and they were literary works but

1611
00:59:51,910 --> 00:59:49,200
they were about sex so you had lolita

1612
00:59:55,510 --> 00:59:51,920
or you had uh the ginger man by uh

1613
00:59:57,349 --> 00:59:55,520
dunlevy or you had uh miller's books uh

1614
00:59:59,349 --> 00:59:57,359
and they even they published early on

1615
01:00:01,670 --> 00:59:59,359
william burrows and things like that

1616
01:00:03,430 --> 01:00:01,680
and all these writers that wilson met

1617
01:00:05,349 --> 01:00:03,440
there at the time were actually

1618
01:00:06,630 --> 01:00:05,359
uh you know working on serious books but

1619
01:00:08,789 --> 01:00:06,640
they were also sort of supplementing

1620
01:00:10,150 --> 01:00:08,799
their income a great deal by by writing

1621
01:00:11,109 --> 01:00:10,160
sort of um

1622
01:00:13,030 --> 01:00:11,119
i don't know

1623
01:00:16,470 --> 01:00:13,040
kind of a dollar a page you know

1624
01:00:18,470 --> 01:00:16,480
pornography for or easterodius and um

1625
01:00:21,829 --> 01:00:18,480
jerodius approached him to write a book

1626
01:00:23,670 --> 01:00:21,839
um about about sex a kind of sex novel

1627
01:00:25,190 --> 01:00:23,680
he accepted doing it because he wanted

1628
01:00:27,510 --> 01:00:25,200
to be able to have the freedom to write

1629
01:00:29,750 --> 01:00:27,520
and as i said there was still a kind of

1630
01:00:31,270 --> 01:00:29,760
repression in in england about about

1631
01:00:32,950 --> 01:00:31,280
writing about this kind of thing but

1632
01:00:34,470 --> 01:00:32,960
actually uh when he talked to his

1633
01:00:36,390 --> 01:00:34,480
english publisher that he was mentioned

1634
01:00:38,230 --> 01:00:36,400
that he was doing this book on sex he

1635
01:00:39,670 --> 01:00:38,240
said well let me split that you know let

1636
01:00:41,109 --> 01:00:39,680
me take a look at it before you you know

1637
01:00:44,230 --> 01:00:41,119
you signed the contract completely and

1638
01:00:46,789 --> 01:00:44,240
all that um and um so he did it wound up

1639
01:00:50,069 --> 01:00:46,799
being published here and um original

1640
01:00:51,910 --> 01:00:50,079
title was man without a shadow but uh to

1641
01:00:54,950 --> 01:00:51,920
wilson chagrin but

1642
01:00:57,109 --> 01:00:54,960
probably uh very wisely by the you know

1643
01:00:59,910 --> 01:00:57,119
uh publicist point of view the publisher

1644
01:01:02,069 --> 01:00:59,920
changed it to um the sex diary of gerard

1645
01:01:03,910 --> 01:01:02,079
storm and gerard storm is the character

1646
01:01:05,750 --> 01:01:03,920
who is in wilson's first novel the rich

1647
01:01:07,109 --> 01:01:05,760
ritual in the dark which itself is about

1648
01:01:08,789 --> 01:01:07,119
sex a great deal

1649
01:01:10,470 --> 01:01:08,799
and and this is a journal about this

1650
01:01:11,670 --> 01:01:10,480
this this kind of

1651
01:01:14,150 --> 01:01:11,680
rootless

1652
01:01:16,470 --> 01:01:14,160
intellectual character who finds himself

1653
01:01:18,549 --> 01:01:16,480
um in london about his sexual

1654
01:01:20,069 --> 01:01:18,559
experiences and interesting thing about

1655
01:01:23,109 --> 01:01:20,079
the book is that one of the characters

1656
01:01:26,230 --> 01:01:23,119
in it is based on alistair crowley um

1657
01:01:29,030 --> 01:01:26,240
and this is about 1962. so crowley had

1658
01:01:30,789 --> 01:01:29,040
yet to be you know embraced you know by

1659
01:01:31,510 --> 01:01:30,799
the pop culture then he was still kind

1660
01:01:32,390 --> 01:01:31,520
of

1661
01:01:34,390 --> 01:01:32,400
um

1662
01:01:36,230 --> 01:01:34,400
an eccentric figure so wilson was ahead

1663
01:01:37,670 --> 01:01:36,240
of the game there once again writing

1664
01:01:39,349 --> 01:01:37,680
about somebody like that and this was

1665
01:01:40,950 --> 01:01:39,359
something he was he doesn't get credit

1666
01:01:43,109 --> 01:01:40,960
for i mentioned herman hesse but he was

1667
01:01:45,510 --> 01:01:43,119
also ahead of the game writing about h.p

1668
01:01:47,750 --> 01:01:45,520
lovecraft you know the great um horror

1669
01:01:49,190 --> 01:01:47,760
horror fiction writer who's since i

1670
01:01:51,270 --> 01:01:49,200
don't know about in the states but over

1671
01:01:53,750 --> 01:01:51,280
here in england he's turning up in

1672
01:01:55,109 --> 01:01:53,760
penguin classics i mean i i you know i

1673
01:01:56,710 --> 01:01:55,119
grew up reading lovecraft and these

1674
01:01:59,750 --> 01:01:56,720
these wonderful you know paperback

1675
01:02:01,670 --> 01:01:59,760
reprints of of of this you know pope

1676
01:02:03,750 --> 01:02:01,680
stuff that he was writing in the in the

1677
01:02:05,589 --> 01:02:03,760
20s and the 30s along with robert e

1678
01:02:07,990 --> 01:02:05,599
howard who wrote you know the king the

1679
01:02:09,829 --> 01:02:08,000
the conan stories and stuff like that

1680
01:02:11,510 --> 01:02:09,839
um but wilson was writing about him in

1681
01:02:13,589 --> 01:02:11,520
advance too this is another thing about

1682
01:02:15,750 --> 01:02:13,599
him that that really

1683
01:02:17,430 --> 01:02:15,760
myself and many other people appreciate

1684
01:02:19,589 --> 01:02:17,440
him for because he introduced us to lots

1685
01:02:21,750 --> 01:02:19,599
of other things that probably wouldn't

1686
01:02:23,990 --> 01:02:21,760
have known about you know um you know it

1687
01:02:24,870 --> 01:02:24,000
sure didn't hurt to have an incredibly

1688
01:02:27,430 --> 01:02:24,880
uh

1689
01:02:29,750 --> 01:02:27,440
just an incredible writing style um one

1690
01:02:32,150 --> 01:02:29,760
of the better writers really i think in

1691
01:02:32,950 --> 01:02:32,160
in the 20th century uh just in terms of

1692
01:02:35,990 --> 01:02:32,960
pure

1693
01:02:43,190 --> 01:02:36,000
just

1694
01:02:45,510 --> 01:02:43,200
one of my favorites

1695
01:02:50,710 --> 01:02:45,520
absolutely

1696
01:02:52,549 --> 01:02:50,720
so what one aspects of his uh work uh

1697
01:02:55,349 --> 01:02:52,559
i mean it's really difficult to write a

1698
01:02:56,710 --> 01:02:55,359
book about an author as prolific as he

1699
01:03:00,069 --> 01:02:56,720
was

1700
01:03:02,309 --> 01:03:00,079
what aspect or give our listeners a a

1701
01:03:05,349 --> 01:03:02,319
sense of how you approached uh such a

1702
01:03:07,030 --> 01:03:05,359
daunting task and um and give us a sense

1703
01:03:09,349 --> 01:03:07,040
of what your your your thinking process

1704
01:03:10,710 --> 01:03:09,359
was going into it well one of the things

1705
01:03:13,349 --> 01:03:10,720
i wanted to do

1706
01:03:15,750 --> 01:03:13,359
was to show that there is a unifying

1707
01:03:17,910 --> 01:03:15,760
idea behind all his books i mean i

1708
01:03:19,910 --> 01:03:17,920
mentioned he wrote about 118 books

1709
01:03:21,750 --> 01:03:19,920
they're not all the same size you know

1710
01:03:23,029 --> 01:03:21,760
some are kind of smaller pamphlets and

1711
01:03:25,190 --> 01:03:23,039
all but in general that's still that's

1712
01:03:27,190 --> 01:03:25,200
still quite a bit in fact i remember one

1713
01:03:29,750 --> 01:03:27,200
time i was interviewing him i asked him

1714
01:03:31,670 --> 01:03:29,760
if he intended to outright h.d wells and

1715
01:03:32,870 --> 01:03:31,680
he laughed and you know i think he did

1716
01:03:34,789 --> 01:03:32,880
want to do that

1717
01:03:36,390 --> 01:03:34,799
let's have more of this our next segment

1718
01:03:39,109 --> 01:03:36,400
we're just getting into

1719
01:03:42,309 --> 01:03:39,119
this rich remembrance

1720
01:03:44,710 --> 01:03:42,319
of the subject of our discussion

1721
01:03:50,930 --> 01:03:44,720
colin wilson with gary lachman and gene

1722
01:03:59,430 --> 01:03:57,430
[Music]

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comment or question about the paracast

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01:08:12,230 --> 01:08:09,039
send it to news at theparacast.com

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01:08:14,069 --> 01:08:12,240
that's news at theparecast.com

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and don't forget to visit our famous

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paracast community forums at

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our listeners probably realize i

1825
01:08:27,110 --> 01:08:25,279
have not followed colin wilson all that

1826
01:08:28,390 --> 01:08:27,120
much i was aware of him read some of his

1827
01:08:29,829 --> 01:08:28,400
stuff

1828
01:08:31,349 --> 01:08:29,839
over the years

1829
01:08:34,470 --> 01:08:31,359
and so i'm sitting here listening to

1830
01:08:35,910 --> 01:08:34,480
gary lachman learning a lot

1831
01:08:38,390 --> 01:08:35,920
about this guy

1832
01:08:40,390 --> 01:08:38,400
fascinating that he covered such a wide

1833
01:08:41,189 --> 01:08:40,400
range of subjects

1834
01:08:42,950 --> 01:08:41,199
now

1835
01:08:45,189 --> 01:08:42,960
it's interesting here when i look at the

1836
01:08:46,070 --> 01:08:45,199
review and the washington post of your

1837
01:08:48,950 --> 01:08:46,080
book

1838
01:08:51,349 --> 01:08:48,960
there's a interesting sentence here

1839
01:08:53,990 --> 01:08:51,359
and obviously the person who wrote this

1840
01:08:58,550 --> 01:08:54,000
is a skeptic about love this he said how

1841
01:09:01,990 --> 01:08:58,560
could anyone actually treat dousing ufos

1842
01:09:03,590 --> 01:09:02,000
and alien abduction seriously now the

1843
01:09:06,950 --> 01:09:03,600
reason i brought this out is because

1844
01:09:09,669 --> 01:09:06,960
obviously on the power cast we do treat

1845
01:09:10,950 --> 01:09:09,679
ufos and alien abductions

1846
01:09:13,269 --> 01:09:10,960
seriously

1847
01:09:15,349 --> 01:09:13,279
maybe not as the way most people would

1848
01:09:17,189 --> 01:09:15,359
explain them so to really digress here

1849
01:09:19,590 --> 01:09:17,199
because there's so much ground to cover

1850
01:09:21,030 --> 01:09:19,600
for a guy who wrote 118 books that we

1851
01:09:24,390 --> 01:09:21,040
can't cover at all

1852
01:09:27,510 --> 01:09:24,400
what did colin wilson have to say about

1853
01:09:29,510 --> 01:09:27,520
ufos and related stuff

1854
01:09:31,669 --> 01:09:29,520
well it's it's that's interesting story

1855
01:09:34,070 --> 01:09:31,679
um as often happens with professional

1856
01:09:35,349 --> 01:09:34,080
writers um you know people approach them

1857
01:09:37,349 --> 01:09:35,359
and ask them if they'd be interested in

1858
01:09:41,430 --> 01:09:37,359
writing a book about something

1859
01:09:43,510 --> 01:09:41,440
and um wilson had done um a

1860
01:09:47,189 --> 01:09:43,520
very a very successful book

1861
01:09:49,590 --> 01:09:47,199
uh here in the uh in the mid 90s uh in

1862
01:09:51,749 --> 01:09:49,600
the uk for virgin publications called

1863
01:09:54,630 --> 01:09:51,759
from atlantis to the sphinx which was

1864
01:09:57,510 --> 01:09:54,640
about basically how old the sphinx

1865
01:09:59,830 --> 01:09:57,520
actually is and and trying to understand

1866
01:10:02,149 --> 01:09:59,840
um you know the ideas that it may be

1867
01:10:03,270 --> 01:10:02,159
much older than um you know the

1868
01:10:04,149 --> 01:10:03,280
conventional

1869
01:10:05,750 --> 01:10:04,159
um

1870
01:10:08,870 --> 01:10:05,760
authorities would say

1871
01:10:10,630 --> 01:10:08,880
and um that book did very very well so

1872
01:10:12,149 --> 01:10:10,640
he was approached by his editor at

1873
01:10:14,390 --> 01:10:12,159
virgin and said you know would you like

1874
01:10:15,590 --> 01:10:14,400
to do a book about ufos about alien

1875
01:10:17,270 --> 01:10:15,600
abductions

1876
01:10:18,550 --> 01:10:17,280
and wilson had to admit that he this was

1877
01:10:20,390 --> 01:10:18,560
something that he had just you know he

1878
01:10:21,830 --> 01:10:20,400
hadn't paid much attention to the books

1879
01:10:24,229 --> 01:10:21,840
he remembered reading like were from the

1880
01:10:26,149 --> 01:10:24,239
50s george adamski you know his his

1881
01:10:29,189 --> 01:10:26,159
flights off to venus and things of that

1882
01:10:31,350 --> 01:10:29,199
sort and but you know being professional

1883
01:10:33,030 --> 01:10:31,360
and as he says in his

1884
01:10:35,510 --> 01:10:33,040
autobiography he's always needing the

1885
01:10:38,070 --> 01:10:35,520
money uh he said yep sure that's that's

1886
01:10:39,830 --> 01:10:38,080
fine and so um he started to do the

1887
01:10:41,430 --> 01:10:39,840
research and one of the things that he

1888
01:10:43,750 --> 01:10:41,440
discovered was that

1889
01:10:46,229 --> 01:10:43,760
actually this fellow he knew john mack

1890
01:10:47,590 --> 01:10:46,239
whose name you probably remember

1891
01:10:49,830 --> 01:10:47,600
he had met him before but not in the

1892
01:10:51,990 --> 01:10:49,840
context of his work on the abduction

1893
01:10:54,630 --> 01:10:52,000
phenomenon mack had written a book about

1894
01:10:56,390 --> 01:10:54,640
t.e lawrence lawrence of arabia and

1895
01:10:57,830 --> 01:10:56,400
lawrence of arabia featured in wilson's

1896
01:11:00,149 --> 01:10:57,840
book the outsider he was one of these

1897
01:11:02,790 --> 01:11:00,159
eccentric characters that he wrote about

1898
01:11:04,790 --> 01:11:02,800
and so uh he was surprised to see this

1899
01:11:07,270 --> 01:11:04,800
book by mack when he started doing all

1900
01:11:09,510 --> 01:11:07,280
this research and then he read mac's

1901
01:11:11,910 --> 01:11:09,520
book heard his story and all that and he

1902
01:11:13,830 --> 01:11:11,920
became convinced that well you know i

1903
01:11:16,070 --> 01:11:13,840
don't know exactly what's going on here

1904
01:11:18,470 --> 01:11:16,080
but something is going on here as our

1905
01:11:19,910 --> 01:11:18,480
recent uh nobel prize winner once said

1906
01:11:21,430 --> 01:11:19,920
in a song a long time ago you know

1907
01:11:22,630 --> 01:11:21,440
something's going on here but we don't

1908
01:11:24,070 --> 01:11:22,640
know exactly

1909
01:11:26,790 --> 01:11:24,080
what it is

1910
01:11:28,709 --> 01:11:26,800
wilson investigated as he as he did with

1911
01:11:30,470 --> 01:11:28,719
all his books he gathers

1912
01:11:32,070 --> 01:11:30,480
all the research material he can he

1913
01:11:34,790 --> 01:11:32,080
makes a big pile of it around himself

1914
01:11:36,630 --> 01:11:34,800
and he reads through all of it and he

1915
01:11:38,550 --> 01:11:36,640
interviews people he can about this sort

1916
01:11:40,070 --> 01:11:38,560
of thing and then thinks about it a

1917
01:11:42,390 --> 01:11:40,080
great deal and comes to some kind of

1918
01:11:43,750 --> 01:11:42,400
conclusion and he really did he really

1919
01:11:44,870 --> 01:11:43,760
came to conclusion that

1920
01:11:46,550 --> 01:11:44,880
something's going on with these

1921
01:11:48,630 --> 01:11:46,560
abduction episodes

1922
01:11:50,870 --> 01:11:48,640
we don't know if it's actually people

1923
01:11:51,669 --> 01:11:50,880
being picked up and brought into some

1924
01:11:54,790 --> 01:11:51,679
you know

1925
01:11:56,630 --> 01:11:54,800
nuts and bolts flying saucer but

1926
01:11:58,630 --> 01:11:56,640
his take on it was much more along the

1927
01:12:01,270 --> 01:11:58,640
lines of say jacques valet

1928
01:12:03,350 --> 01:12:01,280
in the sense that there is some kind of

1929
01:12:05,910 --> 01:12:03,360
strange interdimensional sort of thing

1930
01:12:09,189 --> 01:12:05,920
that is linked to older stories about

1931
01:12:10,550 --> 01:12:09,199
you know fairies or uh the small people

1932
01:12:12,390 --> 01:12:10,560
or a variety of different kinds of

1933
01:12:15,750 --> 01:12:12,400
experiences in the past

1934
01:12:18,070 --> 01:12:15,760
of things in the sky and so on um that

1935
01:12:19,750 --> 01:12:18,080
our current view of these things or or

1936
01:12:21,910 --> 01:12:19,760
the current view at the time say you

1937
01:12:25,030 --> 01:12:21,920
know from the 40s up into the 50s and

1938
01:12:27,270 --> 01:12:25,040
60s about actual kind of crafts flying

1939
01:12:29,189 --> 01:12:27,280
from other planets coming here is part

1940
01:12:30,310 --> 01:12:29,199
of this narrative this kind of story but

1941
01:12:31,750 --> 01:12:30,320
actually it's something more than that

1942
01:12:33,830 --> 01:12:31,760
something psychic is something to do

1943
01:12:35,750 --> 01:12:33,840
with consciousness and his conclusion

1944
01:12:37,750 --> 01:12:35,760
all this is that he really feels that

1945
01:12:38,550 --> 01:12:37,760
these experiences that people are going

1946
01:12:40,390 --> 01:12:38,560
through

1947
01:12:42,470 --> 01:12:40,400
in these abduction things as weird and

1948
01:12:44,950 --> 01:12:42,480
crazy and absolutely absurd as they as

1949
01:12:46,470 --> 01:12:44,960
they sound and i mean myself

1950
01:12:48,149 --> 01:12:46,480
i too hadn't kept up with a lot of

1951
01:12:51,110 --> 01:12:48,159
literature about it i i a good friend of

1952
01:12:53,110 --> 01:12:51,120
mine here mark pilkington in the uk has

1953
01:12:54,950 --> 01:12:53,120
written about the ufo experience and and

1954
01:12:57,430 --> 01:12:54,960
did a film about it and so what i knew

1955
01:12:59,510 --> 01:12:57,440
about it you know kind of came from him

1956
01:13:01,750 --> 01:12:59,520
yeah mark's a great guy super guy we've

1957
01:13:03,910 --> 01:13:01,760
had him on the show i really love him so

1958
01:13:06,229 --> 01:13:03,920
you know who he is there you go uh so

1959
01:13:08,070 --> 01:13:06,239
but wilson came to the conclusion that

1960
01:13:09,990 --> 01:13:08,080
some kind of

1961
01:13:11,910 --> 01:13:10,000
experiment in the sense of trying to

1962
01:13:14,310 --> 01:13:11,920
alter people's consciousness get them

1963
01:13:16,790 --> 01:13:14,320
ready for some kind of change some kind

1964
01:13:18,950 --> 01:13:16,800
of shift in the overall

1965
01:13:20,630 --> 01:13:18,960
evolution of consciousness on the planet

1966
01:13:24,390 --> 01:13:20,640
in a way to put it you know kind of

1967
01:13:26,310 --> 01:13:24,400
grandly um is is involved in this and

1968
01:13:28,870 --> 01:13:26,320
again you know uh he saw it more in

1969
01:13:30,390 --> 01:13:28,880
terms of a kind of experience with our

1970
01:13:34,070 --> 01:13:30,400
consciousness a kind of widening

1971
01:13:35,990 --> 01:13:34,080
expansion expanding deepening of it to

1972
01:13:37,350 --> 01:13:36,000
include things that are

1973
01:13:39,270 --> 01:13:37,360
conventional

1974
01:13:40,950 --> 01:13:39,280
scientific materialist reductionists

1975
01:13:42,950 --> 01:13:40,960
whatever you want to call it a point of

1976
01:13:45,430 --> 01:13:42,960
view just don't allow so that was his

1977
01:13:46,630 --> 01:13:45,440
kind of end so to take on it and one of

1978
01:13:48,709 --> 01:13:46,640
the books that i

1979
01:13:50,390 --> 01:13:48,719
followed up after i read his book called

1980
01:13:52,950 --> 01:13:50,400
alien dawn this came out in the early

1981
01:13:54,070 --> 01:13:52,960
90s a little bit later alien dawn late

1982
01:13:56,310 --> 01:13:54,080
90s

1983
01:13:58,070 --> 01:13:56,320
about the ufo experience was this

1984
01:13:59,350 --> 01:13:58,080
wonderful novel called miracle visitors

1985
01:14:01,750 --> 01:13:59,360
by a science fiction writer here called

1986
01:14:03,750 --> 01:14:01,760
ian watson and in many ways i would say

1987
01:14:06,070 --> 01:14:03,760
that novel is a better introduction to

1988
01:14:07,910 --> 01:14:06,080
the whole abduction kind of experience

1989
01:14:09,910 --> 01:14:07,920
than than you know the kind of standard

1990
01:14:12,550 --> 01:14:09,920
you know sort of non-fiction works about

1991
01:14:14,149 --> 01:14:12,560
it because it takes this whole notion of

1992
01:14:16,550 --> 01:14:14,159
something happening in consciousness

1993
01:14:17,510 --> 01:14:16,560
itself is involved in these kinds of

1994
01:14:19,750 --> 01:14:17,520
things

1995
01:14:21,510 --> 01:14:19,760
let me ask you here because this is what

1996
01:14:23,030 --> 01:14:21,520
you're saying is basically preaching to

1997
01:14:25,110 --> 01:14:23,040
the choir here

1998
01:14:28,390 --> 01:14:25,120
but so many people interested in these

1999
01:14:29,590 --> 01:14:28,400
subjects they can't look beyond physical

2000
01:14:32,470 --> 01:14:29,600
craft

2001
01:14:34,310 --> 01:14:32,480
physical aliens kidnapping physical

2002
01:14:36,470 --> 01:14:34,320
people and taking them

2003
01:14:37,510 --> 01:14:36,480
through the window by levitation or

2004
01:14:40,070 --> 01:14:37,520
whatever

2005
01:14:40,790 --> 01:14:40,080
why are so many people do you think hung

2006
01:14:42,470 --> 01:14:40,800
up

2007
01:14:44,709 --> 01:14:42,480
on this is it because they just haven't

2008
01:14:45,990 --> 01:14:44,719
really been exposed to the literature or

2009
01:14:47,990 --> 01:14:46,000
is it something that

2010
01:14:50,070 --> 01:14:48,000
they're not able to accept

2011
01:14:52,310 --> 01:14:50,080
a much more complicated solution or

2012
01:14:53,830 --> 01:14:52,320
answer well i think this is something

2013
01:14:55,510 --> 01:14:53,840
that you you can see

2014
01:14:57,590 --> 01:14:55,520
throughout history that there's a

2015
01:14:59,990 --> 01:14:57,600
tendency in

2016
01:15:02,149 --> 01:15:00,000
some people perhaps most to take things

2017
01:15:04,390 --> 01:15:02,159
literally that's how they can understand

2018
01:15:06,229 --> 01:15:04,400
them and then there's some others

2019
01:15:08,550 --> 01:15:06,239
perhaps a smaller group of people who

2020
01:15:10,870 --> 01:15:08,560
can understand it say symbolically or

2021
01:15:13,189 --> 01:15:10,880
metaphorically and i don't mean to say

2022
01:15:15,510 --> 01:15:13,199
in saying this now that the ufo

2023
01:15:16,709 --> 01:15:15,520
experience is a metaphor or or symbol

2024
01:15:19,189 --> 01:15:16,719
just that there are other ways of

2025
01:15:20,870 --> 01:15:19,199
interpreting things this is a theme not

2026
01:15:22,709 --> 01:15:20,880
in context of the ufo experience but

2027
01:15:24,470 --> 01:15:22,719
just in consciousness in general and how

2028
01:15:26,470 --> 01:15:24,480
we understand our experience that i that

2029
01:15:27,510 --> 01:15:26,480
i i write about in another book of mine

2030
01:15:29,430 --> 01:15:27,520
called the secret teachers of the

2031
01:15:31,189 --> 01:15:29,440
western world which is more or less the

2032
01:15:32,950 --> 01:15:31,199
kind of history of the west western

2033
01:15:35,990 --> 01:15:32,960
consciousness is seen through the sort

2034
01:15:38,310 --> 01:15:36,000
of esoteric view of things and there

2035
01:15:39,910 --> 01:15:38,320
really is you can see there really is a

2036
01:15:41,590 --> 01:15:39,920
struggle at different times in western

2037
01:15:43,510 --> 01:15:41,600
history between we can say the

2038
01:15:45,350 --> 01:15:43,520
literalists and the symbolists people

2039
01:15:47,030 --> 01:15:45,360
who want not only want to but this is

2040
01:15:49,030 --> 01:15:47,040
the only way they can understand things

2041
01:15:50,709 --> 01:15:49,040
in a very simple literal nuts and bolts

2042
01:15:53,590 --> 01:15:50,719
matter-of-fact kind of way and you get

2043
01:15:55,350 --> 01:15:53,600
that both in religion and in science and

2044
01:15:57,189 --> 01:15:55,360
in everything else i mean the people who

2045
01:15:59,510 --> 01:15:57,199
believe you know the fundamentalists of

2046
01:16:01,590 --> 01:15:59,520
whatever faith who believe in the

2047
01:16:03,830 --> 01:16:01,600
literal interpretation of their

2048
01:16:06,070 --> 01:16:03,840
particular you know religious text

2049
01:16:07,590 --> 01:16:06,080
they're like that and they've always

2050
01:16:09,510 --> 01:16:07,600
throughout history they've always

2051
01:16:11,990 --> 01:16:09,520
persecuted the people who can understand

2052
01:16:14,709 --> 01:16:12,000
it in a symbolism or metaphoric

2053
01:16:15,510 --> 01:16:14,719
or an analogical kind of way i think

2054
01:16:17,830 --> 01:16:15,520
this

2055
01:16:19,270 --> 01:16:17,840
is one of the real struggles and i think

2056
01:16:21,830 --> 01:16:19,280
there's a history of that that needs to

2057
01:16:24,709 --> 01:16:21,840
be written so yeah and also you know

2058
01:16:27,270 --> 01:16:24,719
when i was a kid in in the 60s what i

2059
01:16:30,229 --> 01:16:27,280
saw on saturday morning you know sci-fi

2060
01:16:32,630 --> 01:16:30,239
or horror movies was all these great 50s

2061
01:16:34,470 --> 01:16:32,640
sci-fi movies about the flying saucers

2062
01:16:36,390 --> 01:16:34,480
let's talk a little bit more

2063
01:16:39,030 --> 01:16:36,400
about the flying saucers before we move

2064
01:16:49,750 --> 01:16:39,040
on we've got gene and chris and gary

2065
01:16:54,590 --> 01:16:53,270
thank you for listening to gcn

2066
01:16:57,430 --> 01:16:54,600
be sure to visit

2067
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gcnlive.com today

2068
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though don't be greedy okay here's the

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i'm guessing it works pretty fast

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because it says here that if your belly

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flattening results are too dramatic

2169
01:20:32,950 --> 01:20:31,360
you're supposed to reduce use to every

2170
01:20:34,709 --> 01:20:32,960
other day and it looks like it's made

2171
01:20:36,550 --> 01:20:34,719
from natural ingredients too

2172
01:20:38,709 --> 01:20:36,560
scientifically formulated to cleanse

2173
01:20:41,430 --> 01:20:38,719
pounds of toxic sludge from your body

2174
01:20:43,669 --> 01:20:41,440
okay this is it if you want a flatter

2175
01:20:45,669 --> 01:20:43,679
belly be one of the first 100 callers

2176
01:20:47,790 --> 01:20:45,679
right now to claim one of these free

2177
01:20:50,149 --> 01:20:47,800
trials

2178
01:20:52,110 --> 01:20:50,159
1-800-983-5628 if lines are busy try

2179
01:20:54,390 --> 01:20:52,120
again

2180
01:21:08,070 --> 01:20:54,400
1-800-983-5628 call now for details

2181
01:21:12,470 --> 01:21:10,709
this is robert hastings author of ufos

2182
01:21:15,110 --> 01:21:12,480
and nukes and you're listening to the

2183
01:21:21,189 --> 01:21:15,120
paracast the gold standard of paranormal

2184
01:21:25,830 --> 01:21:23,910
so you recall of course watching tv

2185
01:21:28,630 --> 01:21:25,840
in the new york area

2186
01:21:31,910 --> 01:21:28,640
in say the 60s and 50s and seeing all

2187
01:21:34,070 --> 01:21:31,920
the sci-fi stuff and seeing all those

2188
01:21:36,550 --> 01:21:34,080
programs on tv you're probably too young

2189
01:21:38,470 --> 01:21:36,560
to remember this because you were born

2190
01:21:40,229 --> 01:21:38,480
what in the mid 50s

2191
01:21:42,070 --> 01:21:40,239
so they used to have a character on tv

2192
01:21:43,350 --> 01:21:42,080
named captain video and his video

2193
01:21:45,510 --> 01:21:43,360
rangers

2194
01:21:47,350 --> 01:21:45,520
way before your time and a lot of it was

2195
01:21:49,030 --> 01:21:47,360
done live in new york and they had real

2196
01:21:51,669 --> 01:21:49,040
sci-fi writers sometimes writing the

2197
01:21:54,149 --> 01:21:51,679
scripts but they lost

2198
01:21:56,870 --> 01:21:54,159
all the copies of the show

2199
01:21:58,629 --> 01:21:56,880
so you can't find it anymore but captain

2200
01:22:01,110 --> 01:21:58,639
video was like you know captain kirk

2201
01:22:02,790 --> 01:22:01,120
you're not quite as wacky but

2202
01:22:04,310 --> 01:22:02,800
no well i tell you the first thing i

2203
01:22:06,709 --> 01:22:04,320
remember watching on television was a

2204
01:22:08,550 --> 01:22:06,719
cartoon called colonel bleep

2205
01:22:10,390 --> 01:22:08,560
that i don't know i mean i found it on

2206
01:22:13,430 --> 01:22:10,400
youtube again but it is it is the

2207
01:22:15,430 --> 01:22:13,440
strangest most surreal thing

2208
01:22:17,270 --> 01:22:15,440
and if you go back you look at the stuff

2209
01:22:19,910 --> 01:22:17,280
that one was watching when you're young

2210
01:22:22,310 --> 01:22:19,920
it's amazing how weird it is

2211
01:22:24,070 --> 01:22:22,320
but uh no i mean i i you know i grew up

2212
01:22:26,070 --> 01:22:24,080
um yeah i mean i said earth versus the

2213
01:22:27,030 --> 01:22:26,080
flying saucers the day the earth stood

2214
01:22:30,149 --> 01:22:27,040
still

2215
01:22:33,270 --> 01:22:30,159
you know um it came from outer space

2216
01:22:36,310 --> 01:22:33,280
all these wonderful 50s black and white

2217
01:22:37,990 --> 01:22:36,320
um you know sci-fi films uh and then

2218
01:22:40,310 --> 01:22:38,000
with earth versus flying saucers you

2219
01:22:42,390 --> 01:22:40,320
have ray harryhausen's fantastic

2220
01:22:44,149 --> 01:22:42,400
um animation and all that but that but

2221
01:22:46,470 --> 01:22:44,159
that but that was kind of the you know

2222
01:22:48,629 --> 01:22:46,480
that was sort of the you know the idea

2223
01:22:49,910 --> 01:22:48,639
that what these were about and one of

2224
01:22:52,070 --> 01:22:49,920
the first ones to kind of question

2225
01:22:54,229 --> 01:22:52,080
whether they were nuts and bolts or or

2226
01:22:56,149 --> 01:22:54,239
something more psychic was jung carl

2227
01:22:57,030 --> 01:22:56,159
jung you know the the the second most

2228
01:22:58,950 --> 01:22:57,040
famous

2229
01:22:59,990 --> 01:22:58,960
psychologist in the world right his last

2230
01:23:03,110 --> 01:23:00,000
book

2231
01:23:06,790 --> 01:23:03,120
yeah there are uh the flying saucers um

2232
01:23:09,590 --> 01:23:06,800
a myth of things seen in the sky and he

2233
01:23:11,750 --> 01:23:09,600
thought because the saucers were round

2234
01:23:13,830 --> 01:23:11,760
in shape mostly uh although you know

2235
01:23:15,350 --> 01:23:13,840
obviously there's a cigar shaped ones

2236
01:23:17,510 --> 01:23:15,360
and all that kind of thing

2237
01:23:20,390 --> 01:23:17,520
that these were somehow

2238
01:23:21,990 --> 01:23:20,400
kind of well as as as i said in a few

2239
01:23:23,189 --> 01:23:22,000
books of mine they were mandalas from

2240
01:23:23,910 --> 01:23:23,199
outer space

2241
01:23:29,270 --> 01:23:23,920
and

2242
01:23:30,870 --> 01:23:29,280
know magic circles um that um are used

2243
01:23:33,830 --> 01:23:30,880
in meditation well it's a symbol of

2244
01:23:35,669 --> 01:23:33,840
transformation yeah and and jung himself

2245
01:23:37,189 --> 01:23:35,679
in his in his research and his work with

2246
01:23:39,669 --> 01:23:37,199
his clients found that these these were

2247
01:23:41,910 --> 01:23:39,679
spontaneously you know produced by the

2248
01:23:44,310 --> 01:23:41,920
unconscious uh at different times both

2249
01:23:46,310 --> 01:23:44,320
both as a kind of reaction to you know

2250
01:23:48,629 --> 01:23:46,320
periods of crisis and stress in in the

2251
01:23:50,550 --> 01:23:48,639
individual and a kind of goal a kind of

2252
01:23:53,110 --> 01:23:50,560
target you moved yourself towards but

2253
01:23:55,830 --> 01:23:53,120
young felt that um the whole phenomena

2254
01:23:57,910 --> 01:23:55,840
of of the you know flying saucers uh

2255
01:23:59,669 --> 01:23:57,920
from you know uh what's his name um

2256
01:24:02,790 --> 01:23:59,679
kenneth uh

2257
01:24:05,189 --> 01:24:02,800
uh god uh

2258
01:24:07,110 --> 01:24:05,199
1947 and all that on to when jung was

2259
01:24:09,350 --> 01:24:07,120
writing say in the late 50s

2260
01:24:11,750 --> 01:24:09,360
that these were a product of the kind of

2261
01:24:13,189 --> 01:24:11,760
schizophrenia that the whole world had

2262
01:24:16,709 --> 01:24:13,199
found itself in where you have the two

2263
01:24:18,550 --> 01:24:16,719
superpowers um you know facing off the

2264
01:24:21,990 --> 01:24:18,560
planet was experiencing this kind of

2265
01:24:24,470 --> 01:24:22,000
crisis of of split personality and was

2266
01:24:26,149 --> 01:24:24,480
projecting humanity on moss was

2267
01:24:27,350 --> 01:24:26,159
projecting these images of wholeness up

2268
01:24:29,030 --> 01:24:27,360
into the sky

2269
01:24:32,070 --> 01:24:29,040
and so this is kind of the beginning at

2270
01:24:33,510 --> 01:24:32,080
least in a broadly popular um way of

2271
01:24:36,149 --> 01:24:33,520
this notion that actually you know maybe

2272
01:24:37,990 --> 01:24:36,159
the flying sources aren't real you know

2273
01:24:40,149 --> 01:24:38,000
ships from some place maybe they've got

2274
01:24:42,390 --> 01:24:40,159
something to do with some inner

2275
01:24:44,470 --> 01:24:42,400
world of our own that's that's being

2276
01:24:46,629 --> 01:24:44,480
projected out there and obviously where

2277
01:24:47,510 --> 01:24:46,639
do you come to l.a people like that

2278
01:24:49,189 --> 01:24:47,520
um

2279
01:24:50,870 --> 01:24:49,199
i don't know i mean god you know the

2280
01:24:52,310 --> 01:24:50,880
planets that we know are very close to

2281
01:24:53,350 --> 01:24:52,320
us there ain't nothing much happening

2282
01:24:55,830 --> 01:24:53,360
there

2283
01:24:57,510 --> 01:24:55,840
and it's really far away to anything

2284
01:24:59,030 --> 01:24:57,520
else so

2285
01:25:00,790 --> 01:24:59,040
i kind of think it's got something more

2286
01:25:03,350 --> 01:25:00,800
to do with just consciousness in some

2287
01:25:05,510 --> 01:25:03,360
way and in some strange way i think

2288
01:25:07,910 --> 01:25:05,520
consciousness itself something that we

2289
01:25:10,390 --> 01:25:07,920
are led to believe by conventional

2290
01:25:11,910 --> 01:25:10,400
science and you know the pundits who

2291
01:25:14,149 --> 01:25:11,920
people are supposed to know it's just a

2292
01:25:16,470 --> 01:25:14,159
kind of little pool of awareness that is

2293
01:25:18,790 --> 01:25:16,480
in each of our individual skulls no i i

2294
01:25:21,510 --> 01:25:18,800
think it has a much broader

2295
01:25:22,550 --> 01:25:21,520
existence and it it exists as some kind

2296
01:25:27,030 --> 01:25:22,560
of

2297
01:25:37,270 --> 01:25:27,040
you know

2298
01:25:39,430 --> 01:25:37,280
me like my god what's happening in the

2299
01:25:41,189 --> 01:25:39,440
world you know we have syria everyone's

2300
01:25:42,709 --> 01:25:41,199
fighting everybody else and they don't

2301
01:25:43,830 --> 01:25:42,719
quite know who they're shooting at

2302
01:25:45,669 --> 01:25:43,840
anymore

2303
01:25:47,830 --> 01:25:45,679
so many things seem to be cracking up

2304
01:25:49,350 --> 01:25:47,840
and breaking down and coming apart and

2305
01:25:50,950 --> 01:25:49,360
barriers between things are you know

2306
01:25:52,470 --> 01:25:50,960
being permeated and the whole world

2307
01:25:54,149 --> 01:25:52,480
seems a real mess and like saying yeah

2308
01:25:57,590 --> 01:25:54,159
this is happening it's like this we're

2309
01:25:59,669 --> 01:25:57,600
being tested you know and the the other

2310
01:26:01,750 --> 01:25:59,679
entities out in the universe you know

2311
01:26:03,110 --> 01:26:01,760
the other intelligent beings they're

2312
01:26:04,709 --> 01:26:03,120
waiting to see if we can tie our own

2313
01:26:07,110 --> 01:26:04,719
shoes you know before they're going to

2314
01:26:09,590 --> 01:26:07,120
get in touch with us

2315
01:26:11,750 --> 01:26:09,600
yeah but do you honestly think there is

2316
01:26:15,510 --> 01:26:11,760
some external force that is watching

2317
01:26:17,750 --> 01:26:15,520
over us and that will act in any way

2318
01:26:19,669 --> 01:26:17,760
positive or negative the way we're just

2319
01:26:21,590 --> 01:26:19,679
messing ourselves up

2320
01:26:23,990 --> 01:26:21,600
does anyone else even care even if we

2321
01:26:25,990 --> 01:26:24,000
had physical beings from

2322
01:26:27,350 --> 01:26:26,000
another star system that came down here

2323
01:26:28,950 --> 01:26:27,360
and they looked at us

2324
01:26:30,550 --> 01:26:28,960
would they just see

2325
01:26:32,149 --> 01:26:30,560
in themselves

2326
01:26:34,790 --> 01:26:32,159
another species going through this

2327
01:26:36,709 --> 01:26:34,800
nonsense and maybe not surviving or

2328
01:26:39,430 --> 01:26:36,719
would they act or would anybody even

2329
01:26:41,430 --> 01:26:39,440
care i don't think they care

2330
01:26:42,950 --> 01:26:41,440
i don't know you know i mean

2331
01:26:44,709 --> 01:26:42,960
i guess this is kind of litmus test

2332
01:26:46,470 --> 01:26:44,719
about your general attitude towards life

2333
01:26:47,990 --> 01:26:46,480
you know so i mean yeah i mean i mean

2334
01:26:49,510 --> 01:26:48,000
who do we have the smartest guy in the

2335
01:26:51,669 --> 01:26:49,520
world stephen hawking telling us no no

2336
01:26:52,709 --> 01:26:51,679
no don't try to contact the aliens

2337
01:26:54,629 --> 01:26:52,719
because they're just going to come here

2338
01:26:56,629 --> 01:26:54,639
and enslave us yeah careful what you

2339
01:26:57,910 --> 01:26:56,639
wish for but nobody pays attention to

2340
01:27:00,149 --> 01:26:57,920
him anymore right you know because he's

2341
01:27:01,270 --> 01:27:00,159
saying wacky things now right so he's a

2342
01:27:02,629 --> 01:27:01,280
scientist who we revere but he's

2343
01:27:04,390 --> 01:27:02,639
starting to say wacky things so we don't

2344
01:27:07,270 --> 01:27:04,400
pay so much attention to him anymore

2345
01:27:08,870 --> 01:27:07,280
um i don't know i kind of do well one of

2346
01:27:10,950 --> 01:27:08,880
the things that wilson and you said is

2347
01:27:12,470 --> 01:27:10,960
novels at this this novel the mind

2348
01:27:15,430 --> 01:27:12,480
parasites which i said was about these

2349
01:27:17,030 --> 01:27:15,440
psychic vampires in the mind um there's

2350
01:27:19,189 --> 01:27:17,040
a group of people who learn how to

2351
01:27:21,270 --> 01:27:19,199
overcome them and through the process of

2352
01:27:23,510 --> 01:27:21,280
doing that they they

2353
01:27:25,750 --> 01:27:23,520
powers and abilities far beyond those

2354
01:27:27,350 --> 01:27:25,760
immortal man that had

2355
01:27:29,430 --> 01:27:27,360
don't say that

2356
01:27:31,590 --> 01:27:29,440
yet been available to them

2357
01:27:33,189 --> 01:27:31,600
uh become available and they are able

2358
01:27:34,790 --> 01:27:33,199
somehow this is a science fiction novel

2359
01:27:36,950 --> 01:27:34,800
this is a novel they're they're able to

2360
01:27:39,510 --> 01:27:36,960
go out and and out into space and leave

2361
01:27:41,669 --> 01:27:39,520
the earth and all that and at the very

2362
01:27:43,669 --> 01:27:41,679
rim of our solar system they they come

2363
01:27:45,270 --> 01:27:43,679
into contact with another kind of

2364
01:27:48,149 --> 01:27:45,280
intelligence out there

2365
01:27:50,149 --> 01:27:48,159
and basically they're offered you know

2366
01:27:51,110 --> 01:27:50,159
you can come with us

2367
01:27:55,990 --> 01:27:51,120
you know

2368
01:27:57,110 --> 01:27:56,000
know what's up actually

2369
01:27:58,310 --> 01:27:57,120
out here

2370
01:28:00,310 --> 01:27:58,320
uh and

2371
01:28:02,149 --> 01:28:00,320
actually the hero declines because he

2372
01:28:04,550 --> 01:28:02,159
wants to learn for himself

2373
01:28:06,629 --> 01:28:04,560
he wants it to develop himself so i tend

2374
01:28:08,790 --> 01:28:06,639
to think i tend to think yes i think

2375
01:28:10,550 --> 01:28:08,800
there is how should we say

2376
01:28:12,229 --> 01:28:10,560
in general i think that there's a grain

2377
01:28:14,629 --> 01:28:12,239
to the universe and it

2378
01:28:16,709 --> 01:28:14,639
slowly moves towards the good but it's a

2379
01:28:19,189 --> 01:28:16,719
long road to hoe things are very

2380
01:28:20,950 --> 01:28:19,199
difficult and people say diamond is the

2381
01:28:21,830 --> 01:28:20,960
hardest material in the world no it

2382
01:28:25,510 --> 01:28:21,840
isn't

2383
01:28:27,590 --> 01:28:25,520
human inertia is the most difficult

2384
01:28:29,590 --> 01:28:27,600
most resistant material

2385
01:28:31,669 --> 01:28:29,600
in the known universe and we've been

2386
01:28:32,790 --> 01:28:31,679
working on that for thousands of years

2387
01:28:34,709 --> 01:28:32,800
you know and you know look what happened

2388
01:28:36,950 --> 01:28:34,719
to jesus look it up in the buddha all

2389
01:28:38,470 --> 01:28:36,960
these guys so it's a long road to hoe

2390
01:28:40,070 --> 01:28:38,480
but i do think

2391
01:28:41,990 --> 01:28:40,080
well i was going to say it's something

2392
01:28:44,390 --> 01:28:42,000
like the watcher if you know the watcher

2393
01:28:46,390 --> 01:28:44,400
from the old marvel comics sure he was

2394
01:28:48,229 --> 01:28:46,400
this supremely intelligent powerful

2395
01:28:49,110 --> 01:28:48,239
being but he had taken a vow never into

2396
01:28:51,270 --> 01:28:49,120
fear

2397
01:28:52,709 --> 01:28:51,280
um in the affairs of other of other

2398
01:28:54,950 --> 01:28:52,719
species much like star trek's you know

2399
01:28:56,470 --> 01:28:54,960
the prime directive that kind of thing

2400
01:28:58,070 --> 01:28:56,480
but he kind of he can kind of help a

2401
01:28:59,510 --> 01:28:58,080
little bit he can kind of do a little

2402
01:29:02,229 --> 01:28:59,520
bit he kind of arranged things and in

2403
01:29:04,310 --> 01:29:02,239
fact it's through his imaginations that

2404
01:29:06,550 --> 01:29:04,320
the fantastic four eventually you know

2405
01:29:10,229 --> 01:29:06,560
can defeat galactus in this

2406
01:29:13,030 --> 01:29:10,239
epic epic uh series of issues um in

2407
01:29:14,629 --> 01:29:13,040
about the mid 60s maybe 44 to 49 of the

2408
01:29:16,390 --> 01:29:14,639
fantastic four so it's something like

2409
01:29:18,390 --> 01:29:16,400
that i mean i was going to say that's

2410
01:29:19,990 --> 01:29:18,400
another big influence on me along with

2411
01:29:22,149 --> 01:29:20,000
horror films and science fiction movies

2412
01:29:24,070 --> 01:29:22,159
and lovecraft and all that is the marvel

2413
01:29:25,990 --> 01:29:24,080
comics i i actually belong to the mary

2414
01:29:28,310 --> 01:29:26,000
marvel marching society

2415
01:29:30,149 --> 01:29:28,320
oh please nobody

2416
01:29:32,070 --> 01:29:30,159
is still a member of that what about

2417
01:29:34,790 --> 01:29:32,080
doctor strange because that gets into

2418
01:29:37,030 --> 01:29:34,800
all the mysticism stuff doctor strange

2419
01:29:39,910 --> 01:29:37,040
what were the influences there

2420
01:29:42,070 --> 01:29:39,920
oh my god i mean there you go i mean

2421
01:29:44,229 --> 01:29:42,080
steve ditko um

2422
01:29:46,070 --> 01:29:44,239
i mean i'm glad he finally got some of

2423
01:29:47,990 --> 01:29:46,080
the credit that he deserved like jack

2424
01:29:49,750 --> 01:29:48,000
kirby not to say stan lee shouldn't get

2425
01:29:50,790 --> 01:29:49,760
the credit but he seemed to get more in

2426
01:29:52,950 --> 01:29:50,800
many ways

2427
01:29:55,270 --> 01:29:52,960
it was more on his plate than than the

2428
01:29:56,950 --> 01:29:55,280
other guys but no steve steve ditko is a

2429
01:29:59,669 --> 01:29:56,960
weird character because you know he was

2430
01:30:00,709 --> 01:29:59,679
into ein rand or is he still alive i

2431
01:30:02,470 --> 01:30:00,719
don't i don't really know maybe i

2432
01:30:04,709 --> 01:30:02,480
shouldn't speak in the past tense but he

2433
01:30:06,870 --> 01:30:04,719
was a big reader of iron rand and this

2434
01:30:08,550 --> 01:30:06,880
is one of the reasons why he he left

2435
01:30:10,550 --> 01:30:08,560
marvel and other places because you know

2436
01:30:11,910 --> 01:30:10,560
he had these these these uh values and

2437
01:30:13,110 --> 01:30:11,920
principles that he wouldn't wouldn't

2438
01:30:15,030 --> 01:30:13,120
compromise

2439
01:30:17,189 --> 01:30:15,040
let's stop here before we break we're

2440
01:30:19,110 --> 01:30:17,199
going to break in a second

2441
01:30:21,910 --> 01:30:19,120
steve ditko

2442
01:30:24,149 --> 01:30:21,920
born in johnstown pennsylvania

2443
01:30:26,470 --> 01:30:24,159
he's age 88.

2444
01:30:29,270 --> 01:30:26,480
oh he's live they're still alive look

2445
01:30:31,189 --> 01:30:29,280
stan lee is what in his 90s

2446
01:30:33,270 --> 01:30:31,199
he's still making cameos

2447
01:30:35,669 --> 01:30:33,280
in all the shows we've got gary lachman

2448
01:30:37,110 --> 01:30:35,679
and it's not just about comic books

2449
01:30:39,270 --> 01:30:37,120
okay but you have to think about

2450
01:30:49,830 --> 01:30:39,280
cultural influences with gene and chris

2451
01:30:54,590 --> 01:30:53,350
thank you for listening to gcn

2452
01:30:57,350 --> 01:30:54,600
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2453
01:30:59,669 --> 01:30:57,360
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2462
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2464
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2473
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2513
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2532
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[Music]

2550
01:35:07,590 --> 01:35:06,000
this is micah hanks at the grayling

2551
01:35:09,910 --> 01:35:07,600
report and you're listening to the

2552
01:35:13,110 --> 01:35:09,920
paracast the gold standard of paranormal

2553
01:35:20,870 --> 01:35:19,270
[Music]

2554
01:35:23,910 --> 01:35:20,880
hey i like that you know we're probably

2555
01:35:25,750 --> 01:35:23,920
going to recruit you okay

2556
01:35:27,189 --> 01:35:25,760
i want to ask you this briefly

2557
01:35:28,629 --> 01:35:27,199
you are a member of the rock and roll

2558
01:35:30,870 --> 01:35:28,639
hall of fame right

2559
01:35:33,270 --> 01:35:30,880
yep now how does that work out because

2560
01:35:35,030 --> 01:35:33,280
you left the band before they became

2561
01:35:36,709 --> 01:35:35,040
famous but then you rejoin them for a

2562
01:35:37,830 --> 01:35:36,719
tour

2563
01:35:39,510 --> 01:35:37,840
deal

2564
01:35:40,950 --> 01:35:39,520
well they did their homework i mean i

2565
01:35:42,390 --> 01:35:40,960
tell you the truth when friends got in

2566
01:35:44,470 --> 01:35:42,400
touch with me this is 10 years ago now

2567
01:35:45,750 --> 01:35:44,480
this happened in 2006. friends got in

2568
01:35:47,189 --> 01:35:45,760
touch with me and told me hey gary you

2569
01:35:48,470 --> 01:35:47,199
know blondie's being inducted to the

2570
01:35:49,669 --> 01:35:48,480
rockville hall of fame and you're

2571
01:35:51,590 --> 01:35:49,679
included i said yeah you got to be

2572
01:35:53,030 --> 01:35:51,600
kidding you know i mean you know i had

2573
01:35:55,669 --> 01:35:53,040
made my contribution it is not

2574
01:35:56,390 --> 01:35:55,679
negligible but it is small i recognize

2575
01:35:58,390 --> 01:35:56,400
that

2576
01:35:59,750 --> 01:35:58,400
but no they did their homework but it

2577
01:36:01,510 --> 01:35:59,760
turned out to be

2578
01:36:03,430 --> 01:36:01,520
a scandal at the time

2579
01:36:05,030 --> 01:36:03,440
and i'll use up a couple minutes just

2580
01:36:07,910 --> 01:36:05,040
telling the story where

2581
01:36:10,149 --> 01:36:07,920
it was at the world of historia 2006

2582
01:36:12,149 --> 01:36:10,159
they have the you know the um the

2583
01:36:14,629 --> 01:36:12,159
ceremony and all that kind of thing

2584
01:36:16,470 --> 01:36:14,639
but debbie she didn't really want to

2585
01:36:18,550 --> 01:36:16,480
share as far as i understand you know

2586
01:36:19,910 --> 01:36:18,560
the podium or anything else with

2587
01:36:21,910 --> 01:36:19,920
ex-members

2588
01:36:24,070 --> 01:36:21,920
and she didn't have anything to do with

2589
01:36:25,430 --> 01:36:24,080
us any of that kind of thing but i have

2590
01:36:26,709 --> 01:36:25,440
to hand it to the rockwell hall of fame

2591
01:36:28,709 --> 01:36:26,719
people they did their homework they knew

2592
01:36:31,830 --> 01:36:28,719
the right thing to do and somebody at

2593
01:36:34,950 --> 01:36:31,840
the at that evening got myself frank and

2594
01:36:36,470 --> 01:36:34,960
fonte uh and nigel aside and said look

2595
01:36:38,310 --> 01:36:36,480
you know no matter what happens you guys

2596
01:36:39,270 --> 01:36:38,320
are up there we'll get you up there you

2597
01:36:40,870 --> 01:36:39,280
know

2598
01:36:42,790 --> 01:36:40,880
we're not gonna allow this to happen

2599
01:36:44,390 --> 01:36:42,800
where you don't take part in this so we

2600
01:36:46,550 --> 01:36:44,400
were up there but it was kind of like

2601
01:36:48,870 --> 01:36:46,560
you know the stage ain't big enough for

2602
01:36:49,750 --> 01:36:48,880
all of us kind of attitude once we get

2603
01:36:50,550 --> 01:36:49,760
up there

2604
01:36:52,310 --> 01:36:50,560
and

2605
01:36:53,830 --> 01:36:52,320
everyone has you know a few minutes to

2606
01:36:56,550 --> 01:36:53,840
kind of say their thing you know thank

2607
01:36:58,470 --> 01:36:56,560
everybody and all that and um at one

2608
01:37:00,629 --> 01:36:58,480
point frank and fonte who's another guy

2609
01:37:03,189 --> 01:37:00,639
from jersey jersey jersey contribute

2610
01:37:05,270 --> 01:37:03,199
contributed immensely to the new york

2611
01:37:07,350 --> 01:37:05,280
rock scene i have to say that he said

2612
01:37:09,030 --> 01:37:07,360
the debbie oh come on deb you know for

2613
01:37:10,790 --> 01:37:09,040
old times say can't we just all like

2614
01:37:12,950 --> 01:37:10,800
play a tune together

2615
01:37:15,270 --> 01:37:12,960
and she said no frank can't you see i

2616
01:37:17,430 --> 01:37:15,280
brought my band with me

2617
01:37:19,830 --> 01:37:17,440
and he said you're banned i thought

2618
01:37:21,430 --> 01:37:19,840
blondie was getting inducted into the

2619
01:37:23,750 --> 01:37:21,440
rockamor hall of fame

2620
01:37:25,109 --> 01:37:23,760
and the place went quiet and

2621
01:37:26,790 --> 01:37:25,119
all this is being filmed you know for

2622
01:37:28,950 --> 01:37:26,800
television and all that this big you

2623
01:37:30,550 --> 01:37:28,960
know this big ballroom in the waldorf

2624
01:37:32,550 --> 01:37:30,560
astoria and nobody knew what was going

2625
01:37:33,669 --> 01:37:32,560
on everyone thought this was a joke and

2626
01:37:35,669 --> 01:37:33,679
they realized actually this is like

2627
01:37:38,229 --> 01:37:35,679
family feud this

2628
01:37:39,830 --> 01:37:38,239
is like really nasty stuff happening

2629
01:37:41,669 --> 01:37:39,840
here you know she wouldn't let us play

2630
01:37:43,109 --> 01:37:41,679
and all that and uh that was the scandal

2631
01:37:44,550 --> 01:37:43,119
of the evening the other scandal of the

2632
01:37:46,470 --> 01:37:44,560
evening was the sex pistols they were

2633
01:37:48,870 --> 01:37:46,480
supposed to be inducted but instead of

2634
01:37:51,109 --> 01:37:48,880
showing up johnny lydon john leiden or

2635
01:37:52,870 --> 01:37:51,119
johnny rotten just sent a letter saying

2636
01:37:55,510 --> 01:37:52,880
you know we piss on the rock mall hall

2637
01:37:57,350 --> 01:37:55,520
of fame you guys are full of i guess is

2638
01:37:58,950 --> 01:37:57,360
was that a four-letter word i'm sorry

2639
01:38:00,629 --> 01:37:58,960
but the next day in all the gossip

2640
01:38:02,790 --> 01:38:00,639
columns they were saying about debbie

2641
01:38:05,189 --> 01:38:02,800
you know heart of crass or something

2642
01:38:06,950 --> 01:38:05,199
like that because

2643
01:38:08,470 --> 01:38:06,960
she well you know it was kind of like

2644
01:38:10,070 --> 01:38:08,480
she just made it so obvious that you

2645
01:38:11,430 --> 01:38:10,080
know she wasn't interested in the rest

2646
01:38:13,750 --> 01:38:11,440
of the guys but i hey you know what i

2647
01:38:15,750 --> 01:38:13,760
never thought i'd ever get there so

2648
01:38:18,550 --> 01:38:15,760
what can i say you know i mean my you

2649
01:38:21,109 --> 01:38:18,560
know my my congratulations you're out of

2650
01:38:23,350 --> 01:38:21,119
500 guests you're our first

2651
01:38:25,109 --> 01:38:23,360
standing or first member of the rock and

2652
01:38:27,430 --> 01:38:25,119
roll hall of fame to be on our show

2653
01:38:29,350 --> 01:38:27,440
there you go well you may be the last

2654
01:38:31,189 --> 01:38:29,360
one but we're certainly happy to have

2655
01:38:34,070 --> 01:38:31,199
your board let me just ask you a final

2656
01:38:35,750 --> 01:38:34,080
question before we go back to ufos and

2657
01:38:36,870 --> 01:38:35,760
the occult and colin wilson and

2658
01:38:39,510 --> 01:38:36,880
everything

2659
01:38:41,750 --> 01:38:39,520
are you at on touch with any

2660
01:38:43,830 --> 01:38:41,760
existing or former members of blondie

2661
01:38:46,629 --> 01:38:43,840
anymore or is that just

2662
01:38:47,830 --> 01:38:46,639
all over with no i mean no to put it

2663
01:38:49,350 --> 01:38:47,840
that way i mean there was some

2664
01:38:51,030 --> 01:38:49,360
acrimonious and then there's all the

2665
01:38:52,310 --> 01:38:51,040
usual things that happens you know money

2666
01:38:54,629 --> 01:38:52,320
disputes and things like that and

2667
01:38:56,390 --> 01:38:54,639
royalties and so on and so on but no i'm

2668
01:38:58,229 --> 01:38:56,400
i'm i have the last time i saw any of

2669
01:38:59,830 --> 01:38:58,239
them was ten years ago when we did the

2670
01:39:01,350 --> 01:38:59,840
rocker hall of fame

2671
01:39:03,510 --> 01:39:01,360
so that was it

2672
01:39:05,430 --> 01:39:03,520
uh but you know

2673
01:39:08,149 --> 01:39:05,440
well jimmy and slim always seem to be

2674
01:39:10,390 --> 01:39:08,159
really really you know just kind of

2675
01:39:12,790 --> 01:39:10,400
aw shucks kind of guys claim a little so

2676
01:39:14,709 --> 01:39:12,800
but jimmy was sweetheart yeah i know

2677
01:39:16,950 --> 01:39:14,719
they're all nice i mean climb i went to

2678
01:39:19,910 --> 01:39:16,960
high school with i i carried clem's

2679
01:39:22,629 --> 01:39:19,920
drums into like the the school dance

2680
01:39:24,470 --> 01:39:22,639
somewhere you know um so i mean i i i

2681
01:39:25,669 --> 01:39:24,480
know him god how old am i now i'm not

2682
01:39:27,590 --> 01:39:25,679
gonna tell you for real but you know i

2683
01:39:29,830 --> 01:39:27,600
know him for a really long time uh but

2684
01:39:31,750 --> 01:39:29,840
you know things happen and i i don't i

2685
01:39:34,229 --> 01:39:31,760
don't hold any heart hard you know hard

2686
01:39:35,270 --> 01:39:34,239
feelings or anything like that um and

2687
01:39:36,310 --> 01:39:35,280
you know the

2688
01:39:41,109 --> 01:39:36,320
the little

2689
01:39:42,149 --> 01:39:41,119
took not at him but at chris and debbie

2690
01:39:43,990 --> 01:39:42,159
are in

2691
01:39:45,830 --> 01:39:44,000
my book new york rocker so it's a good

2692
01:39:47,910 --> 01:39:45,840
read it's it's a really good read about

2693
01:39:49,030 --> 01:39:47,920
the time and it tells you what that time

2694
01:39:51,189 --> 01:39:49,040
was like

2695
01:39:53,189 --> 01:39:51,199
i just ordered it by the way how do you

2696
01:39:55,430 --> 01:39:53,199
know there you go all right

2697
01:39:56,870 --> 01:39:55,440
i just i just as we've been on the show

2698
01:39:58,229 --> 01:39:56,880
here i went ahead and

2699
01:39:59,750 --> 01:39:58,239
and i've been meaning to do it for a

2700
01:40:01,990 --> 01:39:59,760
while and today was a perfect

2701
01:40:03,430 --> 01:40:02,000
opportunity to do it and not forget it's

2702
01:40:05,910 --> 01:40:03,440
probably like a penny or something on

2703
01:40:08,229 --> 01:40:05,920
amazon these days oh no no

2704
01:40:10,470 --> 01:40:08,239
the used copies are up there but

2705
01:40:12,390 --> 01:40:10,480
uh it's more than that but

2706
01:40:15,430 --> 01:40:12,400
one thing i must say before we we move

2707
01:40:16,470 --> 01:40:15,440
on is you know i have known a number of

2708
01:40:18,790 --> 01:40:16,480
people

2709
01:40:20,390 --> 01:40:18,800
that have you know made it in various

2710
01:40:23,030 --> 01:40:20,400
fields and

2711
01:40:26,390 --> 01:40:23,040
success does change people and

2712
01:40:29,669 --> 01:40:26,400
it does place friendships in

2713
01:40:31,990 --> 01:40:29,679
sometimes an uncomfortable new place um

2714
01:40:33,430 --> 01:40:32,000
oftentimes uncomfortable for the people

2715
01:40:35,990 --> 01:40:33,440
that are dealing with someone that's

2716
01:40:37,669 --> 01:40:36,000
that's become successful which which

2717
01:40:38,550 --> 01:40:37,679
kind of makes a problem doubly bad

2718
01:40:40,790 --> 01:40:38,560
because

2719
01:40:43,590 --> 01:40:40,800
then that puts more more um

2720
01:40:44,790 --> 01:40:43,600
tension and stress into the relationship

2721
01:40:46,229 --> 01:40:44,800
uh that

2722
01:40:48,550 --> 01:40:46,239
you know maybe shouldn't even have to be

2723
01:40:51,109 --> 01:40:48,560
there to begin with and you know i can

2724
01:40:51,990 --> 01:40:51,119
say that you know debbie was notoriously

2725
01:40:54,229 --> 01:40:52,000
um

2726
01:40:55,109 --> 01:40:54,239
you know kind of divash in her own way

2727
01:41:03,109 --> 01:40:55,119
and

2728
01:41:05,830 --> 01:41:03,119
last as business partners as long as

2729
01:41:06,950 --> 01:41:05,840
they did and still remain friends um

2730
01:41:09,189 --> 01:41:06,960
as

2731
01:41:12,229 --> 01:41:09,199
not to mention having a very very close

2732
01:41:14,229 --> 01:41:12,239
and heavy relationship for many years

2733
01:41:16,070 --> 01:41:14,239
and you know with chris almost dying and

2734
01:41:18,149 --> 01:41:16,080
stuff and and debbie's sticking by him

2735
01:41:20,390 --> 01:41:18,159
and you know so you gotta you gotta

2736
01:41:22,709 --> 01:41:20,400
admire him for that but success changes

2737
01:41:24,950 --> 01:41:22,719
people i mean at different times you

2738
01:41:28,310 --> 01:41:24,960
know that i mean it was a long stretch

2739
01:41:30,229 --> 01:41:28,320
when i wasn't involved in that world

2740
01:41:32,790 --> 01:41:30,239
or writing and i lived in la and i was

2741
01:41:34,470 --> 01:41:32,800
actually i was working at a metaphysical

2742
01:41:36,229 --> 01:41:34,480
book shop it's not there anymore a place

2743
01:41:38,390 --> 01:41:36,239
called the bodhi tree oh the bodhi tree

2744
01:41:40,390 --> 01:41:38,400
yeah so it was very well known and they

2745
01:41:42,470 --> 01:41:40,400
were in town recording and they came

2746
01:41:43,830 --> 01:41:42,480
into the shop to say hello and to invite

2747
01:41:46,950 --> 01:41:43,840
me down to the recording session and i

2748
01:41:48,470 --> 01:41:46,960
wound up singing back backup vocals and

2749
01:41:50,470 --> 01:41:48,480
some track called bad boys i forget

2750
01:41:52,709 --> 01:41:50,480
which album it's on but you know it's

2751
01:41:54,149 --> 01:41:52,719
like oh god you know everybody in the

2752
01:41:55,830 --> 01:41:54,159
shop is like oh my god look who's here

2753
01:41:56,950 --> 01:41:55,840
and all that kind of thing but no i mean

2754
01:41:58,709 --> 01:41:56,960
but you know

2755
01:42:00,790 --> 01:41:58,719
you're right it does things do change

2756
01:42:02,790 --> 01:42:00,800
things happen and it's it's the standard

2757
01:42:04,390 --> 01:42:02,800
kind of story where you're all friends

2758
01:42:06,149 --> 01:42:04,400
and banded together in the early days

2759
01:42:07,510 --> 01:42:06,159
when you're in the trenches and

2760
01:42:08,790 --> 01:42:07,520
you're struggling and you're starving

2761
01:42:10,790 --> 01:42:08,800
and you're making it happen and then the

2762
01:42:12,950 --> 01:42:10,800
suits show up and then they dangle

2763
01:42:14,870 --> 01:42:12,960
success before your eyes and then all

2764
01:42:17,270 --> 01:42:14,880
that kind of stuff happens so i i have

2765
01:42:18,870 --> 01:42:17,280
no regrets uh in fact chris stein saved

2766
01:42:20,870 --> 01:42:18,880
my life once i tell the story in new

2767
01:42:22,709 --> 01:42:20,880
york rocker it was in this loft we were

2768
01:42:24,470 --> 01:42:22,719
living in and the short the short

2769
01:42:25,830 --> 01:42:24,480
version is they picked up a lamp once

2770
01:42:27,910 --> 01:42:25,840
and there was a shorten it and i was

2771
01:42:29,189 --> 01:42:27,920
being electrocuted and i couldn't move

2772
01:42:30,390 --> 01:42:29,199
and i couldn't speak and i couldn't do

2773
01:42:32,550 --> 01:42:30,400
anything and i couldn't let go of the

2774
01:42:35,030 --> 01:42:32,560
lamp had he not walked out of the back

2775
01:42:36,550 --> 01:42:35,040
of the loft and seen what was happening

2776
01:42:38,229 --> 01:42:36,560
and casually walked over and just pulled

2777
01:42:41,750 --> 01:42:38,239
the plug who knows where he would be

2778
01:42:43,830 --> 01:42:41,760
today so i have to thank him for that so

2779
01:42:46,390 --> 01:42:43,840
no matter what happens so after that

2780
01:42:47,810 --> 01:42:46,400
maybe today he'd say you know i should

2781
01:42:50,790 --> 01:42:47,820
not have done that

2782
01:42:52,390 --> 01:42:50,800
[Laughter]

2783
01:42:53,830 --> 01:42:52,400
seriously

2784
01:42:56,390 --> 01:42:53,840
getting the free electricity from the

2785
01:42:57,189 --> 01:42:56,400
liquor store anyway but you know

2786
01:43:01,750 --> 01:42:57,199
right

2787
01:43:07,590 --> 01:43:04,149
i was shaking that's good

2788
01:43:10,310 --> 01:43:07,600
okay getting back to the uh the subject

2789
01:43:12,149 --> 01:43:10,320
at hand uh colin wilson and uh the

2790
01:43:13,270 --> 01:43:12,159
daunting task of

2791
01:43:14,870 --> 01:43:13,280
of

2792
01:43:15,669 --> 01:43:14,880
course

2793
01:43:18,229 --> 01:43:15,679
yeah

2794
01:43:20,950 --> 01:43:18,239
sorry i'm sorry but i did ask a question

2795
01:43:22,470 --> 01:43:20,960
before gene uh kind of interrupted us

2796
01:43:25,189 --> 01:43:22,480
when we went to break

2797
01:43:27,189 --> 01:43:25,199
um i was really interested to know

2798
01:43:28,950 --> 01:43:27,199
how um

2799
01:43:30,310 --> 01:43:28,960
you know what prompted you to tackle

2800
01:43:32,229 --> 01:43:30,320
such a uh

2801
01:43:33,830 --> 01:43:32,239
you know such a monumental task i mean

2802
01:43:35,430 --> 01:43:33,840
uh that's no

2803
01:43:37,189 --> 01:43:35,440
no easy feat i can't think of many

2804
01:43:40,470 --> 01:43:37,199
writers it would be more difficult to

2805
01:43:43,030 --> 01:43:40,480
try to really get inside their heads and

2806
01:43:45,189 --> 01:43:43,040
and uh present the reader with you know

2807
01:43:48,070 --> 01:43:45,199
a coherent look at

2808
01:43:49,189 --> 01:43:48,080
such a kaleidoscope of subjects that he

2809
01:43:51,109 --> 01:43:49,199
he covered

2810
01:43:53,109 --> 01:43:51,119
there were as you mentioned threads that

2811
01:43:55,510 --> 01:43:53,119
wound through most of his work but

2812
01:43:59,030 --> 01:43:55,520
but just the sheer output and

2813
01:44:01,590 --> 01:43:59,040
the sheer depth of brilliance and uh

2814
01:44:04,629 --> 01:44:01,600
the guy really did have a very unique

2815
01:44:06,870 --> 01:44:04,639
way of of looking at people places and

2816
01:44:09,270 --> 01:44:06,880
things and and events and

2817
01:44:11,830 --> 01:44:09,280
and uh i

2818
01:44:13,350 --> 01:44:11,840
you know i'm just very curious of of how

2819
01:44:15,910 --> 01:44:13,360
you convinced yourself to go ahead and

2820
01:44:17,830 --> 01:44:15,920
tackle that or maybe you were just uh

2821
01:44:20,470 --> 01:44:17,840
bribed by your uh your publisher and

2822
01:44:22,550 --> 01:44:20,480
they said do a book about this guy

2823
01:44:24,070 --> 01:44:22,560
no i mean it was a labor of love really

2824
01:44:25,990 --> 01:44:24,080
because as i said

2825
01:44:28,310 --> 01:44:26,000
his books got me

2826
01:44:30,950 --> 01:44:28,320
on all of this in the first place and

2827
01:44:33,510 --> 01:44:30,960
then um i start the book with telling a

2828
01:44:35,910 --> 01:44:33,520
story of how i made this pilgrimage

2829
01:44:38,629 --> 01:44:35,920
down to where he lived in cornwall

2830
01:44:42,390 --> 01:44:38,639
and that was 1983

2831
01:44:44,390 --> 01:44:42,400
and i had already by that time

2832
01:44:46,070 --> 01:44:44,400
read lots of his books been in and out

2833
01:44:47,510 --> 01:44:46,080
of rock and roll

2834
01:44:49,510 --> 01:44:47,520
was

2835
01:44:52,629 --> 01:44:49,520
enjoying this wonderful

2836
01:44:53,910 --> 01:44:52,639
couple years i had when i left uh music

2837
01:44:55,750 --> 01:44:53,920
uh and

2838
01:44:57,350 --> 01:44:55,760
my song presents dear had

2839
01:44:59,350 --> 01:44:57,360
had done you know very well so i

2840
01:45:01,030 --> 01:44:59,360
actually you know had some income from

2841
01:45:04,149 --> 01:45:01,040
the royalties and i i could do what i

2842
01:45:06,790 --> 01:45:04,159
wanted basically for a time and what i

2843
01:45:08,870 --> 01:45:06,800
did was read a lot so i tried to write

2844
01:45:10,950 --> 01:45:08,880
which i didn't was wasn't very good at

2845
01:45:13,990 --> 01:45:10,960
at that point and then i traveled and a

2846
01:45:15,910 --> 01:45:14,000
friend of mine we went to europe on this

2847
01:45:18,229 --> 01:45:15,920
kind of mini search for the miraculous

2848
01:45:19,910 --> 01:45:18,239
and we went to places like um shard

2849
01:45:21,830 --> 01:45:19,920
cathedral

2850
01:45:23,590 --> 01:45:21,840
notre dame de paris

2851
01:45:25,430 --> 01:45:23,600
we're going to have more on the search

2852
01:45:27,430 --> 01:45:25,440
for the miraculous that we have to have

2853
01:45:29,910 --> 01:45:27,440
this miraculous announcement

2854
01:45:38,149 --> 01:45:29,920
with gary jean and chris you're in the

2855
01:45:38,159 --> 01:45:42,870
thank you for listening to gcn

2856
01:45:47,430 --> 01:45:43,790
visit

2857
01:45:51,830 --> 01:45:49,510
attack of the rockoids has been well

2858
01:45:53,430 --> 01:45:51,840
received by critics and readers alike

2859
01:45:54,870 --> 01:45:53,440
it's a thrill a minute story you'll

2860
01:45:56,790 --> 01:45:54,880
never forget

2861
01:45:59,189 --> 01:45:56,800
a former u.s military intelligence

2862
01:46:01,750 --> 01:45:59,199
officer is haunted by intense dreams

2863
01:46:04,149 --> 01:46:01,760
about a beautiful woman pleading for his

2864
01:46:05,189 --> 01:46:04,159
help after a terrible battle in outer

2865
01:46:07,350 --> 01:46:05,199
space

2866
01:46:09,350 --> 01:46:07,360
but the dreams turn out to be true and

2867
01:46:12,070 --> 01:46:09,360
thrust him into a telepathic love affair

2868
01:46:14,950 --> 01:46:12,080
with a woman whose far away planet is

2869
01:46:17,189 --> 01:46:14,960
intent on destroying the earth and now

2870
01:46:19,830 --> 01:46:17,199
the gripping tale continues in the

2871
01:46:22,629 --> 01:46:19,840
coming of the protectors it's the second

2872
01:46:24,629 --> 01:46:22,639
book of the rockoids trilogy a galaxy

2873
01:46:27,270 --> 01:46:24,639
spanning adventure that pits our hapless

2874
01:46:29,350 --> 01:46:27,280
heroes against powerful fanatical

2875
01:46:31,830 --> 01:46:29,360
enemies that threaten the lives of

2876
01:46:34,550 --> 01:46:31,840
freedom-loving beings everywhere

2877
01:46:37,510 --> 01:46:34,560
attack of the rockoids and the coming of

2878
01:46:40,390 --> 01:46:37,520
the protectors classic science fiction

2879
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at its best available now for more

2880
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details visit rocoids.com

2881
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2882
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2887
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2897
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compliance with the obamacare individual

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mandate imagine having access to quality

2899
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affordable health care that allows you

2900
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the freedom to choose your doctor and

2901
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hospital members can share up to 100

2902
01:47:38,870 --> 01:47:36,960
percent of necessary medical expenses

2903
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including some alternative treatments

2904
01:47:42,790 --> 01:47:40,719
find out how you and your family can

2905
01:47:44,910 --> 01:47:42,800
contain healthcare costs without giving

2906
01:47:46,390 --> 01:47:44,920
up your freedom go to

2907
01:47:53,570 --> 01:47:46,400
libertyoncall.org that's

2908
01:47:59,430 --> 01:47:56,149
[Applause]

2909
01:48:03,109 --> 01:47:59,440
welcome back to the paracast the gold

2910
01:48:07,670 --> 01:48:03,119
standard of paranormal radio

2911
01:48:11,750 --> 01:48:07,680
and now here's jane steinberg

2912
01:48:15,430 --> 01:48:13,990
that was our miraculous announcement

2913
01:48:16,870 --> 01:48:15,440
we've got one more for you we have a

2914
01:48:18,470 --> 01:48:16,880
second radio show after the power

2915
01:48:20,470 --> 01:48:18,480
powercast

2916
01:48:23,790 --> 01:48:20,480
if you want to hear that show you've got

2917
01:48:25,189 --> 01:48:23,800
to be a member of the powercastplus at

2918
01:48:27,430 --> 01:48:25,199
plus.thepowercast.com that's where you

2919
01:48:29,030 --> 01:48:27,440
get all the information we give you the

2920
01:48:31,830 --> 01:48:29,040
commercial free version of this show

2921
01:48:34,709 --> 01:48:31,840
lots of benefits for a modest

2922
01:48:36,750 --> 01:48:34,719
subscription rate our price

2923
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2924
01:48:42,070 --> 01:48:39,679
plus.powercast.com miraculous times with

2925
01:48:44,550 --> 01:48:42,080
gary lachman go ahead please

2926
01:48:46,470 --> 01:48:44,560
yeah so i was saying it was 1983 i i was

2927
01:48:47,990 --> 01:48:46,480
in europe with a friend of mine and we

2928
01:48:49,590 --> 01:48:48,000
were on this kind of mini search of the

2929
01:48:52,790 --> 01:48:49,600
miraculous and we went to places like

2930
01:48:53,669 --> 01:48:52,800
shard cathedral in france and we also

2931
01:48:55,270 --> 01:48:53,679
found

2932
01:48:57,990 --> 01:48:55,280
in fontainebleau which is outside of

2933
01:49:00,310 --> 01:48:58,000
paris where gerjeff this esoteric

2934
01:49:02,550 --> 01:49:00,320
teacher from the 20s and 30s i mentioned

2935
01:49:04,790 --> 01:49:02,560
earlier had had this institute of the

2936
01:49:07,109 --> 01:49:04,800
harmonious development of man so we

2937
01:49:09,270 --> 01:49:07,119
found this place where he had it in the

2938
01:49:10,950 --> 01:49:09,280
forest in fontainebleau and we went to

2939
01:49:13,109 --> 01:49:10,960
glastonbury and

2940
01:49:16,149 --> 01:49:13,119
stonehenge and so on but someplace i

2941
01:49:18,470 --> 01:49:16,159
wanted to go part of the the the

2942
01:49:20,790 --> 01:49:18,480
search of my own was to go meet colin

2943
01:49:23,510 --> 01:49:20,800
wilson and he lived as i said before he

2944
01:49:26,709 --> 01:49:23,520
had moved down to the very end uh the

2945
01:49:28,310 --> 01:49:26,719
westernmost tip of england in cornwall

2946
01:49:30,790 --> 01:49:28,320
in the late 50s and when i went down

2947
01:49:31,830 --> 01:49:30,800
there in 1983

2948
01:49:33,669 --> 01:49:31,840
he was very

2949
01:49:35,590 --> 01:49:33,679
friendly someone had given me his phone

2950
01:49:38,070 --> 01:49:35,600
number i figured exactly how i got it

2951
01:49:39,669 --> 01:49:38,080
somebody probably a bookseller in london

2952
01:49:41,270 --> 01:49:39,679
and i called him from a phone box in

2953
01:49:43,109 --> 01:49:41,280
penzance and he was very friendly and

2954
01:49:44,550 --> 01:49:43,119
said yes please come by and yes you can

2955
01:49:46,629 --> 01:49:44,560
stay you know you can stay the night and

2956
01:49:48,629 --> 01:49:46,639
all that and then i went there

2957
01:49:50,390 --> 01:49:48,639
and had this wonderful evening with him

2958
01:49:52,390 --> 01:49:50,400
where he is explaining his ideas about

2959
01:49:53,990 --> 01:49:52,400
consciousness to me and how it relates

2960
01:49:56,470 --> 01:49:54,000
to you know different areas of

2961
01:49:58,310 --> 01:49:56,480
existentialism and other philosophy i

2962
01:50:00,470 --> 01:49:58,320
really felt at the end of a heavily

2963
01:50:02,629 --> 01:50:00,480
wine-fueled evening that i had grasped

2964
01:50:03,910 --> 01:50:02,639
it you know i really had got my hands

2965
01:50:05,189 --> 01:50:03,920
around it but the next morning when i

2966
01:50:06,629 --> 01:50:05,199
woke up it had slipped through my

2967
01:50:08,470 --> 01:50:06,639
fingers and then i carried out a

2968
01:50:09,669 --> 01:50:08,480
correspondence with him after that what

2969
01:50:12,070 --> 01:50:09,679
had happened was that he became a kind

2970
01:50:12,950 --> 01:50:12,080
of mentor you know for me he was i was a

2971
01:50:15,189 --> 01:50:12,960
fan

2972
01:50:16,709 --> 01:50:15,199
became an acquaintance then a friend i

2973
01:50:19,430 --> 01:50:16,719
visited him different times down in

2974
01:50:21,350 --> 01:50:19,440
cornwall whenever he would come to la

2975
01:50:22,950 --> 01:50:21,360
where i was living at the time to give a

2976
01:50:25,030 --> 01:50:22,960
talk or something we would meet up at

2977
01:50:27,030 --> 01:50:25,040
one point he actually stayed with me

2978
01:50:28,790 --> 01:50:27,040
when i was house sitting in this

2979
01:50:31,109 --> 01:50:28,800
wonderful place that i called the zen

2980
01:50:33,270 --> 01:50:31,119
castle up in the hollywood hills it was

2981
01:50:34,629 --> 01:50:33,280
um owned by one of one of the owners of

2982
01:50:35,910 --> 01:50:34,639
the bodhi tree this metaphysical

2983
01:50:37,430 --> 01:50:35,920
bookshop i worked in and they were on

2984
01:50:40,790 --> 01:50:37,440
holiday and they asked me to house it

2985
01:50:42,950 --> 01:50:40,800
and i did and wilson was coming there to

2986
01:50:44,310 --> 01:50:42,960
uh give a talk and i said well why don't

2987
01:50:46,310 --> 01:50:44,320
you you know you why don't you stay with

2988
01:50:48,310 --> 01:50:46,320
with me and i have this this great huge

2989
01:50:50,390 --> 01:50:48,320
play so he did so i got to know him very

2990
01:50:52,790 --> 01:50:50,400
well and his ideas really influenced all

2991
01:50:54,149 --> 01:50:52,800
of my own books all of my own ideas i i

2992
01:50:55,590 --> 01:50:54,159
think i've made that pretty clear in my

2993
01:50:57,109 --> 01:50:55,600
books over the years

2994
01:50:59,270 --> 01:50:57,119
but i didn't feel i could write a

2995
01:51:01,990 --> 01:50:59,280
full-length book about him basically

2996
01:51:03,270 --> 01:51:02,000
until he passed away and i don't feel he

2997
01:51:05,189 --> 01:51:03,280
obliged me

2998
01:51:06,390 --> 01:51:05,199
by doing that so that i i could actually

2999
01:51:08,229 --> 01:51:06,400
write the book but when it actually

3000
01:51:09,990 --> 01:51:08,239
happened i mean i don't say it so much

3001
01:51:12,070 --> 01:51:10,000
in the book itself but i wrote an

3002
01:51:14,629 --> 01:51:12,080
article about this that when i heard

3003
01:51:16,070 --> 01:51:14,639
about his passing i was in amsterdam or

3004
01:51:18,629 --> 01:51:16,080
i was in the netherlands i was giving a

3005
01:51:20,070 --> 01:51:18,639
talk at a conference there and then when

3006
01:51:22,550 --> 01:51:20,080
it was confirmed that you know he had

3007
01:51:24,550 --> 01:51:22,560
died i i really felt bereft i was i was

3008
01:51:26,870 --> 01:51:24,560
really i felt like a hole you know that

3009
01:51:28,229 --> 01:51:26,880
kind of emotional intensity that that

3010
01:51:30,229 --> 01:51:28,239
you feel about people that are very

3011
01:51:31,990 --> 01:51:30,239
close to you and uh that's how i felt

3012
01:51:33,750 --> 01:51:32,000
and other people knew him as well i mean

3013
01:51:35,990 --> 01:51:33,760
i wasn't the only one he had many many

3014
01:51:37,589 --> 01:51:36,000
fans many many people visited him that

3015
01:51:39,830 --> 01:51:37,599
their home down in cornwall was a kind

3016
01:51:41,510 --> 01:51:39,840
of site a pilgrimage for many people and

3017
01:51:43,669 --> 01:51:41,520
he knew lots and lots of people so i i

3018
01:51:44,950 --> 01:51:43,679
wasn't in an exceptional case in any way

3019
01:51:46,470 --> 01:51:44,960
but there was just something about his

3020
01:51:47,830 --> 01:51:46,480
ideas that really you know grabbed me

3021
01:51:50,629 --> 01:51:47,840
and what i wanted to do in the book was

3022
01:51:52,390 --> 01:51:50,639
this show actually there is one linchpin

3023
01:51:55,189 --> 01:51:52,400
holding together all the different books

3024
01:51:57,270 --> 01:51:55,199
he writes about crime he wrote much much

3025
01:51:59,030 --> 01:51:57,280
much about crime wonderful books about

3026
01:52:00,149 --> 01:51:59,040
crime the history of crime fantastic

3027
01:52:02,310 --> 01:52:00,159
book called the criminal history of

3028
01:52:03,669 --> 01:52:02,320
mankind which you could devote a whole

3029
01:52:05,830 --> 01:52:03,679
episode to

3030
01:52:07,830 --> 01:52:05,840
about the occult about the paranormal

3031
01:52:10,310 --> 01:52:07,840
about literature about philosophy about

3032
01:52:12,229 --> 01:52:10,320
psychology about sex and so many other

3033
01:52:13,589 --> 01:52:12,239
things but there's a single kind of

3034
01:52:15,510 --> 01:52:13,599
thing that holds it all together and

3035
01:52:17,830 --> 01:52:15,520
it's this question of freedom and what

3036
01:52:20,550 --> 01:52:17,840
he calls at the beginning of the occult

3037
01:52:21,990 --> 01:52:20,560
the paradoxical nature of freedom now

3038
01:52:24,790 --> 01:52:22,000
freedom is something

3039
01:52:27,189 --> 01:52:24,800
that when it's threatened we know

3040
01:52:28,870 --> 01:52:27,199
exactly how valuable it is and how

3041
01:52:30,470 --> 01:52:28,880
important it is and we will fight tooth

3042
01:52:33,109 --> 01:52:30,480
and nail body and soul

3043
01:52:34,950 --> 01:52:33,119
to hold on to it or to regain it but the

3044
01:52:37,350 --> 01:52:34,960
weird thing about us is that once the

3045
01:52:40,070 --> 01:52:37,360
crisis is passed once we have regained

3046
01:52:42,229 --> 01:52:40,080
the freedom again we invariably against

3047
01:52:44,390 --> 01:52:42,239
our best efforts slip into this kind of

3048
01:52:46,470 --> 01:52:44,400
taking it for granted we kind of lose

3049
01:52:48,229 --> 01:52:46,480
hold of why it's important and this is

3050
01:52:50,149 --> 01:52:48,239
the existential dilemma this is why we

3051
01:52:52,070 --> 01:52:50,159
go through life most of our lives in

3052
01:52:54,629 --> 01:52:52,080
this kind of half a sleep state and it's

3053
01:52:55,990 --> 01:52:54,639
only when crisis faces us or some other

3054
01:52:57,270 --> 01:52:56,000
you know shocking demanding kind of

3055
01:52:59,109 --> 01:52:57,280
thing that we kind of wake up and say oh

3056
01:53:00,709 --> 01:52:59,119
my god like what's really happening here

3057
01:53:02,870 --> 01:53:00,719
what's going on with that that's what he

3058
01:53:04,870 --> 01:53:02,880
devoted his his mind to and trying to

3059
01:53:06,870 --> 01:53:04,880
under analyze in all these different

3060
01:53:07,830 --> 01:53:06,880
books and he came up with the way he

3061
01:53:10,470 --> 01:53:07,840
felt

3062
01:53:12,470 --> 01:53:10,480
was a means of kind of working against

3063
01:53:15,189 --> 01:53:12,480
this kind of inner lethargy this kind of

3064
01:53:17,109 --> 01:53:15,199
inner boredom this kind of devaluing of

3065
01:53:19,270 --> 01:53:17,119
our experience that we did that we

3066
01:53:21,189 --> 01:53:19,280
unconsciously perform all the time and

3067
01:53:23,189 --> 01:53:21,199
that's what i wanted to get across to to

3068
01:53:25,109 --> 01:53:23,199
the readers of my book you know freedom

3069
01:53:26,790 --> 01:53:25,119
is something that at least in this

3070
01:53:28,149 --> 01:53:26,800
country is

3071
01:53:30,070 --> 01:53:28,159
number one people really don't

3072
01:53:32,310 --> 01:53:30,080
understand what it means and even if

3073
01:53:34,390 --> 01:53:32,320
they did they'd still be in that place

3074
01:53:35,430 --> 01:53:34,400
of uh taking it for granted

3075
01:53:37,510 --> 01:53:35,440
not really

3076
01:53:39,430 --> 01:53:37,520
appreciating uh the wonderful freedoms

3077
01:53:42,470 --> 01:53:39,440
that we still have in this country even

3078
01:53:43,830 --> 01:53:42,480
though they're being degraded daily and

3079
01:53:45,629 --> 01:53:43,840
we're seeing some real disturbing

3080
01:53:48,790 --> 01:53:45,639
movement towards more of an

3081
01:53:50,709 --> 01:53:48,800
authoritarian you know system but

3082
01:53:53,030 --> 01:53:50,719
but that's a very good point i never

3083
01:53:54,470 --> 01:53:53,040
really thought of his work i i

3084
01:53:56,870 --> 01:53:54,480
understand completely what you're saying

3085
01:53:59,030 --> 01:53:56,880
but as a unifying principle

3086
01:54:00,950 --> 01:53:59,040
it's a little bit eye-opening for me to

3087
01:54:02,629 --> 01:54:00,960
to hear that um that that actually

3088
01:54:03,830 --> 01:54:02,639
echoed throughout his work which of

3089
01:54:05,430 --> 01:54:03,840
course i'm not

3090
01:54:06,229 --> 01:54:05,440
totally familiar with i've only read

3091
01:54:07,030 --> 01:54:06,239
maybe

3092
01:54:09,589 --> 01:54:07,040
10

3093
01:54:11,510 --> 01:54:09,599
of his books maybe eight ten so that

3094
01:54:13,270 --> 01:54:11,520
that's a very good point and i do think

3095
01:54:16,870 --> 01:54:13,280
it's a point that should be underscored

3096
01:54:18,790 --> 01:54:16,880
in you know what may be the cusp of uh

3097
01:54:21,750 --> 01:54:18,800
interesting times that might feature a

3098
01:54:23,589 --> 01:54:21,760
little less freedom than we're used to

3099
01:54:25,030 --> 01:54:23,599
no this is true i mean i'm saying the

3100
01:54:26,070 --> 01:54:25,040
the idea when it's something freedom is

3101
01:54:29,030 --> 01:54:26,080
something that's physically threatened

3102
01:54:31,510 --> 01:54:29,040
we all know how important it is uh he in

3103
01:54:33,589 --> 01:54:31,520
the beginning of the occult

3104
01:54:35,990 --> 01:54:33,599
he says about how you know when the

3105
01:54:38,229 --> 01:54:36,000
tanks rolled into warsaw or something

3106
01:54:40,310 --> 01:54:38,239
like that everyone knew exactly what

3107
01:54:42,629 --> 01:54:40,320
freedom was and it was very clear and

3108
01:54:44,390 --> 01:54:42,639
clean and he says it's something it was

3109
01:54:46,229 --> 01:54:44,400
rather like the silver that someone a

3110
01:54:48,149 --> 01:54:46,239
burglar was coming to steal you know we

3111
01:54:50,070 --> 01:54:48,159
knew it was something we wanted but when

3112
01:54:52,390 --> 01:54:50,080
we don't have that threat it all becomes

3113
01:54:54,390 --> 01:54:52,400
kind of misty and vague so you have

3114
01:54:57,430 --> 01:54:54,400
these characters these existential

3115
01:55:00,229 --> 01:54:57,440
characters like murseau and camus book

3116
01:55:02,390 --> 01:55:00,239
the stranger who sort of sleepwalks

3117
01:55:05,669 --> 01:55:02,400
through this whole life that he has and

3118
01:55:07,350 --> 01:55:05,679
he somehow through no actual decision of

3119
01:55:09,270 --> 01:55:07,360
his own winds up shooting you know

3120
01:55:11,350 --> 01:55:09,280
somebody on the on this beach

3121
01:55:13,350 --> 01:55:11,360
and then is finds himself in prison and

3122
01:55:15,189 --> 01:55:13,360
about to be kind of executed for murder

3123
01:55:16,470 --> 01:55:15,199
that and he's he's he slept walked

3124
01:55:18,870 --> 01:55:16,480
through everything it's only at the very

3125
01:55:20,709 --> 01:55:18,880
end where the reality of his situation

3126
01:55:22,629 --> 01:55:20,719
is come to him that he actually feels

3127
01:55:23,910 --> 01:55:22,639
the kind of intensity of being and this

3128
01:55:25,109 --> 01:55:23,920
is the kind of thing that wilson is

3129
01:55:27,510 --> 01:55:25,119
really this is what attracted him to

3130
01:55:29,990 --> 01:55:27,520
gerjav another kind of philosophers of

3131
01:55:31,990 --> 01:55:30,000
this is this kind of sense of being he

3132
01:55:34,070 --> 01:55:32,000
he likes to quote from the german

3133
01:55:36,550 --> 01:55:34,080
philosopher martin heidegger this phrase

3134
01:55:38,709 --> 01:55:36,560
the triviality of everydayness the kind

3135
01:55:40,629 --> 01:55:38,719
of everyday routine kind of blunts our

3136
01:55:42,629 --> 01:55:40,639
appreciation of everything this is why

3137
01:55:44,709 --> 01:55:42,639
he wrote about crime a lot he said a lot

3138
01:55:47,109 --> 01:55:44,719
a lot of criminals in fact a lot of

3139
01:55:48,470 --> 01:55:47,119
murders take place because the person

3140
01:55:49,910 --> 01:55:48,480
perpetrating them

3141
01:55:52,790 --> 01:55:49,920
has so

3142
01:55:55,189 --> 01:55:52,800
dull a sentence of their own being that

3143
01:55:58,070 --> 01:55:55,199
they need some kind of radical act to

3144
01:56:00,070 --> 01:55:58,080
kind of feel alive for the few seconds

3145
01:56:02,070 --> 01:56:00,080
that you know this violence erupts in

3146
01:56:03,589 --> 01:56:02,080
them they feel a kind of intensity of

3147
01:56:05,830 --> 01:56:03,599
being that they never felt their whole

3148
01:56:07,830 --> 01:56:05,840
life now of course it's it's more than

3149
01:56:10,550 --> 01:56:07,840
unfortunate it's tragic it's horrific

3150
01:56:12,629 --> 01:56:10,560
that they're driven to this but again

3151
01:56:14,229 --> 01:56:12,639
the same kind of things that say

3152
01:56:15,990 --> 01:56:14,239
he talks about i mentioned earlier

3153
01:56:18,310 --> 01:56:16,000
herman hesse one of the great examples

3154
01:56:20,310 --> 01:56:18,320
of this is hess's novel steppenwolf

3155
01:56:22,550 --> 01:56:20,320
which was you know very big in the late

3156
01:56:24,070 --> 01:56:22,560
60s and 70s and obviously the band

3157
01:56:25,030 --> 01:56:24,080
steppenwolf took their name from it and

3158
01:56:27,270 --> 01:56:25,040
all that

3159
01:56:29,589 --> 01:56:27,280
and the steppenwolf character is someone

3160
01:56:31,430 --> 01:56:29,599
who has external freedom he doesn't have

3161
01:56:33,350 --> 01:56:31,440
obligations and responsibilities has

3162
01:56:35,350 --> 01:56:33,360
enough money to live on his own he could

3163
01:56:36,709 --> 01:56:35,360
do what he wants he can spend his days

3164
01:56:39,669 --> 01:56:36,719
reading or listening to music or

3165
01:56:42,310 --> 01:56:39,679
anything like that but he feels this

3166
01:56:44,870 --> 01:56:42,320
encroaching kind of boredom and on we

3167
01:56:47,030 --> 01:56:44,880
coming over him all the time and and his

3168
01:56:49,109 --> 01:56:47,040
freedom becomes a burden and if you know

3169
01:56:51,189 --> 01:56:49,119
the novel the beginning of it he's

3170
01:56:53,270 --> 01:56:51,199
walking around you know deciding when to

3171
01:56:55,910 --> 01:56:53,280
go back home when to slit his throat but

3172
01:56:58,550 --> 01:56:55,920
what happens is that he stops at a calf

3173
01:56:59,750 --> 01:56:58,560
a cafe has a glass of wine and suddenly

3174
01:57:01,669 --> 01:56:59,760
this kind of

3175
01:57:03,189 --> 01:57:01,679
experience happens to him this freedom

3176
01:57:05,750 --> 01:57:03,199
experience we can have suddenly he's

3177
01:57:07,669 --> 01:57:05,760
reminded of his freedom it becomes real

3178
01:57:09,669 --> 01:57:07,679
to him again we all really have this

3179
01:57:11,510 --> 01:57:09,679
freedom our problem is that we don't

3180
01:57:14,229 --> 01:57:11,520
really grab that we have it most of the

3181
01:57:15,669 --> 01:57:14,239
time we tend to need some kind of crisis

3182
01:57:18,229 --> 01:57:15,679
some kind of threat

3183
01:57:20,149 --> 01:57:18,239
something to shock us into feeling it

3184
01:57:21,669 --> 01:57:20,159
and wilson wanted to find a way to be

3185
01:57:22,629 --> 01:57:21,679
able to do that without having to go

3186
01:57:24,629 --> 01:57:22,639
through these

3187
01:57:26,550 --> 01:57:24,639
inordinate you know means of doing it

3188
01:57:28,550 --> 01:57:26,560
like the threat of suicide and he always

3189
01:57:30,709 --> 01:57:28,560
tells the story of the writer graham

3190
01:57:33,430 --> 01:57:30,719
greene who as a teenager felt this

3191
01:57:35,589 --> 01:57:33,440
excruciating boredom we've got gary

3192
01:57:43,330 --> 01:57:35,599
lachman and jean and chris you're in the

3193
01:57:49,030 --> 01:57:47,030
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3302
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3303
02:02:03,750 --> 02:02:01,920
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we're immersed in a lot of fascinating

3307
02:02:15,669 --> 02:02:14,000
discussions here for the final three

3308
02:02:17,270 --> 02:02:15,679
segments of the power cast with gary

3309
02:02:19,669 --> 02:02:17,280
lachman talking about

3310
02:02:22,070 --> 02:02:19,679
colin wilson and so many different

3311
02:02:23,109 --> 02:02:22,080
subjects to get into go ahead please i

3312
02:02:25,270 --> 02:02:23,119
was going to say i was telling you the

3313
02:02:27,030 --> 02:02:25,280
story of the writer graham greene as a

3314
02:02:28,550 --> 02:02:27,040
famous british writer when he was a

3315
02:02:31,910 --> 02:02:28,560
teenager he he suffered this

3316
02:02:34,790 --> 02:02:31,920
excruciating boredom so badly that um he

3317
02:02:36,709 --> 02:02:34,800
was driven to play russian roulette he

3318
02:02:38,149 --> 02:02:36,719
he came across a revolver that his older

3319
02:02:40,229 --> 02:02:38,159
brother had

3320
02:02:42,229 --> 02:02:40,239
stashed away somewhere and what he did

3321
02:02:44,070 --> 02:02:42,239
was that he took the revolver he put one

3322
02:02:45,430 --> 02:02:44,080
bullet in you know one of the chambers

3323
02:02:46,470 --> 02:02:45,440
spun the whole thing

3324
02:02:47,990 --> 02:02:46,480
and

3325
02:02:50,390 --> 02:02:48,000
put it to his head

3326
02:02:52,310 --> 02:02:50,400
and then when the hammer

3327
02:02:54,229 --> 02:02:52,320
clicked on an empty chamber he didn't

3328
02:02:56,790 --> 02:02:54,239
blow his brains out he suddenly had this

3329
02:02:58,229 --> 02:02:56,800
enormous experience of well-being

3330
02:02:59,750 --> 02:02:58,239
and everything suddenly became

3331
02:03:01,109 --> 02:02:59,760
interesting everything that he was bored

3332
02:03:02,790 --> 02:03:01,119
to tears with

3333
02:03:04,790 --> 02:03:02,800
five minutes ago suddenly became

3334
02:03:06,310 --> 02:03:04,800
infinitely interesting to him from that

3335
02:03:08,629 --> 02:03:06,320
wilson concludes that what what had

3336
02:03:10,790 --> 02:03:08,639
happened the world didn't change it was

3337
02:03:12,950 --> 02:03:10,800
always there the infinite possibilities

3338
02:03:15,270 --> 02:03:12,960
that green was able to suddenly see had

3339
02:03:17,030 --> 02:03:15,280
always been there he was blind to them

3340
02:03:19,830 --> 02:03:17,040
why was he blind to them well because

3341
02:03:22,070 --> 02:03:19,840
his consciousness had been so dull it

3342
02:03:23,589 --> 02:03:22,080
had been so limp it was as if he was

3343
02:03:25,109 --> 02:03:23,599
trying to pick up things you know with

3344
02:03:26,390 --> 02:03:25,119
his hands just like covered in butter

3345
02:03:28,229 --> 02:03:26,400
you know he couldn't grab hold of

3346
02:03:30,310 --> 02:03:28,239
anything and suddenly the threat of

3347
02:03:32,629 --> 02:03:30,320
instant annihilation

3348
02:03:34,390 --> 02:03:32,639
wakes him up and he kind of

3349
02:03:36,149 --> 02:03:34,400
he kind of you know does this kind of

3350
02:03:38,310 --> 02:03:36,159
concentration and suddenly that's what

3351
02:03:39,510 --> 02:03:38,320
happens so wilson is basically trying to

3352
02:03:41,589 --> 02:03:39,520
say like well

3353
02:03:43,990 --> 02:03:41,599
yes we we all like graham green in some

3354
02:03:45,910 --> 02:03:44,000
way we all under undervalue our

3355
02:03:48,709 --> 02:03:45,920
experience and it's only under threat

3356
02:03:50,870 --> 02:03:48,719
that we can feel its true value is there

3357
02:03:52,950 --> 02:03:50,880
some way we can feel that true value

3358
02:03:55,350 --> 02:03:52,960
without putting a gun to our head that's

3359
02:03:57,109 --> 02:03:55,360
what his philosophy is about wow

3360
02:03:58,790 --> 02:03:57,119
another thing that i'm i'm seeing here

3361
02:04:01,669 --> 02:03:58,800
looking through this incredible list of

3362
02:04:02,470 --> 02:04:01,679
books uh authored by wilson

3363
02:04:10,470 --> 02:04:02,480
he

3364
02:04:13,030 --> 02:04:10,480
thread

3365
02:04:14,470 --> 02:04:13,040
throughout the biographies of that kind

3366
02:04:17,990 --> 02:04:14,480
of dovetail

3367
02:04:20,149 --> 02:04:18,000
with his interest that he would address

3368
02:04:22,709 --> 02:04:20,159
you know in his other books

3369
02:04:23,830 --> 02:04:22,719
do you have any particular favorites

3370
02:04:25,589 --> 02:04:23,840
that you could recommend to our

3371
02:04:27,270 --> 02:04:25,599
listeners because when we have an author

3372
02:04:29,750 --> 02:04:27,280
on who's done a biography of someone as

3373
02:04:32,229 --> 02:04:29,760
prolific as as wilson it's always good

3374
02:04:34,310 --> 02:04:32,239
to give people if they're interested

3375
02:04:35,669 --> 02:04:34,320
a sense of where's a good starting point

3376
02:04:37,750 --> 02:04:35,679
and i think some of the biographies

3377
02:04:39,589 --> 02:04:37,760
might be a good place for people to kind

3378
02:04:41,910 --> 02:04:39,599
of get into uh

3379
02:04:43,910 --> 02:04:41,920
into his writing style and uh his

3380
02:04:47,030 --> 02:04:43,920
thinking well yeah i mean he wrote

3381
02:04:49,109 --> 02:04:47,040
biographies of bernard shaw and he wrote

3382
02:04:50,629 --> 02:04:49,119
a biography of rudolph steiner

3383
02:04:53,669 --> 02:04:50,639
so that gives you a kind of you know

3384
02:04:54,790 --> 02:04:53,679
idea of of his range i mean bernard shaw

3385
02:04:56,229 --> 02:04:54,800
was one of the great you know

3386
02:04:58,550 --> 02:04:56,239
playwrights of the

3387
02:05:00,229 --> 02:04:58,560
early early 20th century he's not he's

3388
02:05:01,910 --> 02:05:00,239
not quite as revered as he was at one

3389
02:05:06,390 --> 02:05:01,920
point but he was a world famous kind of

3390
02:05:07,350 --> 02:05:06,400
figure rito steiner um is uh an austrian

3391
02:05:11,109 --> 02:05:07,360
um

3392
02:05:13,350 --> 02:05:11,119
kind of polymath who uh developed this

3393
02:05:15,030 --> 02:05:13,360
um depending on how you look at it you

3394
02:05:17,830 --> 02:05:15,040
know rather strange

3395
02:05:19,990 --> 02:05:17,840
uh spiritual philosophy and is also

3396
02:05:21,990 --> 02:05:20,000
he's also behind many of the waldorf or

3397
02:05:23,910 --> 02:05:22,000
steiner schools

3398
02:05:25,589 --> 02:05:23,920
alternative education wilson was always

3399
02:05:27,669 --> 02:05:25,599
attracted to ideas and he was attracted

3400
02:05:30,790 --> 02:05:27,679
to the people who had the ideas and how

3401
02:05:32,950 --> 02:05:30,800
they faced the kind of challenges that

3402
02:05:34,149 --> 02:05:32,960
he talks about in his book the outsider

3403
02:05:36,149 --> 02:05:34,159
and he's very interested in people's

3404
02:05:38,550 --> 02:05:36,159
development how they face you know the

3405
02:05:41,350 --> 02:05:38,560
development of growing the challenges

3406
02:05:43,669 --> 02:05:41,360
life presents to you do you recoil from

3407
02:05:45,669 --> 02:05:43,679
them do you embrace them do you run away

3408
02:05:48,470 --> 02:05:45,679
from them do you do you run into them

3409
02:05:51,030 --> 02:05:48,480
head on so he wrote uh books about

3410
02:05:52,870 --> 02:05:51,040
people like jung guard jeff

3411
02:05:55,109 --> 02:05:52,880
uspensky who was gurjev's kind of

3412
02:05:56,950 --> 02:05:55,119
lieutenant and i i've written a

3413
02:05:59,189 --> 02:05:56,960
biography of as well because i think he

3414
02:06:01,109 --> 02:05:59,199
deserves more credit than he gets in

3415
02:06:03,589 --> 02:06:01,119
most of the books written about gurujef

3416
02:06:04,950 --> 02:06:03,599
and all of that uh he did a biography of

3417
02:06:07,270 --> 02:06:04,960
wilhelm reich

3418
02:06:08,470 --> 02:06:07,280
a very good one too i might add exactly

3419
02:06:10,790 --> 02:06:08,480
steiner

3420
02:06:13,510 --> 02:06:10,800
uh else to crowley he's mostly

3421
02:06:15,510 --> 02:06:13,520
interested in people and their ideas and

3422
02:06:17,910 --> 02:06:15,520
i mean reading one of his biographies

3423
02:06:20,390 --> 02:06:17,920
it's as much a book about wilson on

3424
02:06:22,550 --> 02:06:20,400
these people than it is you know holy

3425
02:06:24,149 --> 02:06:22,560
about them so you get obviously get his

3426
02:06:26,390 --> 02:06:24,159
take but he's always engaging with their

3427
02:06:27,669 --> 02:06:26,400
ideas and what he does is he engages he

3428
02:06:29,109 --> 02:06:27,679
engages with them in a kind of

3429
02:06:31,030 --> 02:06:29,119
discussion you know they're not around

3430
02:06:33,189 --> 02:06:31,040
anymore obviously to talk with them

3431
02:06:34,870 --> 02:06:33,199
perhaps now uh when they're all in the

3432
02:06:36,790 --> 02:06:34,880
next bardo they're all kind of you know

3433
02:06:39,270 --> 02:06:36,800
banging it out amongst themselves and

3434
02:06:41,030 --> 02:06:39,280
you know having a having a good old

3435
02:06:42,629 --> 02:06:41,040
conversation there this is one of the

3436
02:06:43,830 --> 02:06:42,639
things i've always liked about his

3437
02:06:45,990 --> 02:06:43,840
writing i think one of the best things

3438
02:06:47,830 --> 02:06:46,000
he does is write about other writers

3439
02:06:49,270 --> 02:06:47,840
write about other thinkers because he

3440
02:06:50,310 --> 02:06:49,280
really tries to understand what they're

3441
02:06:52,790 --> 02:06:50,320
saying

3442
02:06:54,950 --> 02:06:52,800
what what they're proposing and then

3443
02:06:56,069 --> 02:06:54,960
he he meets it with his own with his own

3444
02:06:58,870 --> 02:06:56,079
ideas

3445
02:07:00,870 --> 02:06:58,880
um but i would say if someone coming to

3446
02:07:03,830 --> 02:07:00,880
wilson for the first time if you really

3447
02:07:05,510 --> 02:07:03,840
want to get a flavor of what

3448
02:07:07,270 --> 02:07:05,520
he's like the occult is a very good

3449
02:07:08,790 --> 02:07:07,280
start or the follow-up

3450
02:07:09,830 --> 02:07:08,800
that came out in the late 70s called

3451
02:07:11,430 --> 02:07:09,840
mysteries

3452
02:07:13,510 --> 02:07:11,440
which was with the occult is the kind of

3453
02:07:15,109 --> 02:07:13,520
history of the occult and takes you back

3454
02:07:17,189 --> 02:07:15,119
and it starts sort of stone age and

3455
02:07:18,790 --> 02:07:17,199
brings you up to contemporary times

3456
02:07:19,830 --> 02:07:18,800
mysteries was about what was happening

3457
02:07:22,310 --> 02:07:19,840
then

3458
02:07:25,030 --> 02:07:22,320
i said my first two wilson books

3459
02:07:28,069 --> 02:07:26,709
i mean when i was on that little mini

3460
02:07:29,750 --> 02:07:28,079
search of the miraculous that i i

3461
02:07:31,350 --> 02:07:29,760
mentioned earlier that was that was the

3462
02:07:33,189 --> 02:07:31,360
one book i had with me was mysteries

3463
02:07:34,629 --> 02:07:33,199
because at the time i was got really

3464
02:07:36,870 --> 02:07:34,639
into earth magic

3465
02:07:38,390 --> 02:07:36,880
and ley lines and and you know standing

3466
02:07:41,030 --> 02:07:38,400
stones and all that that was very

3467
02:07:42,870 --> 02:07:41,040
popular at that point and i went around

3468
02:07:45,030 --> 02:07:42,880
to all these sites with with that book

3469
02:07:46,950 --> 02:07:45,040
because he devotes a few chapters to

3470
02:07:48,390 --> 02:07:46,960
that kind of thing but there's so much

3471
02:07:49,750 --> 02:07:48,400
in there you know out of the body

3472
02:07:50,790 --> 02:07:49,760
experiences

3473
02:07:51,990 --> 02:07:50,800
terre haute

3474
02:07:53,830 --> 02:07:52,000
magic

3475
02:07:55,830 --> 02:07:53,840
esp he just was he just brought

3476
02:07:57,669 --> 02:07:55,840
everything together and his books are

3477
02:07:58,550 --> 02:07:57,679
kind of encyclopedia

3478
02:08:01,030 --> 02:07:58,560
of

3479
02:08:03,109 --> 02:08:01,040
both the the subject and also what

3480
02:08:04,149 --> 02:08:03,119
people were thinking about about it at

3481
02:08:05,510 --> 02:08:04,159
the time

3482
02:08:07,669 --> 02:08:05,520
and i think he's really responsible in

3483
02:08:09,510 --> 02:08:07,679
many ways for making it making it uh at

3484
02:08:10,870 --> 02:08:09,520
the time in early 70s

3485
02:08:12,550 --> 02:08:10,880
a respectable

3486
02:08:14,229 --> 02:08:12,560
um you know

3487
02:08:17,189 --> 02:08:14,239
subject of study because you have people

3488
02:08:19,030 --> 02:08:17,199
like say arthur kessler who was a

3489
02:08:22,149 --> 02:08:19,040
well-known political writer and a

3490
02:08:24,550 --> 02:08:22,159
science writer and he came out um in the

3491
02:08:26,950 --> 02:08:24,560
early 70s writing about esp in his book

3492
02:08:28,709 --> 02:08:26,960
called the roots of coincidence and when

3493
02:08:30,950 --> 02:08:28,719
he died and he was very very successful

3494
02:08:33,350 --> 02:08:30,960
he he left the large request

3495
02:08:35,669 --> 02:08:33,360
to a university to establish a chair in

3496
02:08:38,310 --> 02:08:35,679
parapsychology and i think it went to a

3497
02:08:39,109 --> 02:08:38,320
university in edinburgh to do that

3498
02:08:45,270 --> 02:08:39,119
well

3499
02:08:47,189 --> 02:08:45,280
biographies

3500
02:08:49,669 --> 02:08:47,199
and the list of them i mean jung madame

3501
02:08:51,109 --> 02:08:49,679
blavatsky swedenberg corley as you

3502
02:08:54,550 --> 02:08:51,119
mentioned prior

3503
02:08:57,189 --> 02:08:54,560
there's ospensky steiner

3504
02:08:59,750 --> 02:08:57,199
you kind of have a similar approach too

3505
02:09:01,030 --> 02:08:59,760
or you're throwing changeups in there

3506
02:09:03,189 --> 02:09:01,040
by featuring

3507
02:09:05,910 --> 02:09:03,199
you know writers and thinkers that have

3508
02:09:07,270 --> 02:09:05,920
been influential in your process and i i

3509
02:09:09,430 --> 02:09:07,280
think that's

3510
02:09:12,870 --> 02:09:09,440
for all writers out there that's always

3511
02:09:15,270 --> 02:09:12,880
a good way to um i think focus

3512
02:09:17,109 --> 02:09:15,280
not only your own ideas but focus on how

3513
02:09:19,669 --> 02:09:17,119
those ideas have developed and how your

3514
02:09:23,669 --> 02:09:19,679
thinking has has progressed

3515
02:09:26,310 --> 02:09:23,679
based on the kinds of of uh minds that

3516
02:09:29,750 --> 02:09:26,320
that you can appreciate and uh

3517
02:09:30,550 --> 02:09:29,760
and identify with so i i think it's uh

3518
02:09:33,350 --> 02:09:30,560
that's

3519
02:09:36,229 --> 02:09:33,360
you know a bit of a a testament to your

3520
02:09:38,229 --> 02:09:36,239
um ability to spread spread around and

3521
02:09:40,709 --> 02:09:38,239
let your readers kind of have more of an

3522
02:09:42,550 --> 02:09:40,719
inside track on on your development and

3523
02:09:43,669 --> 02:09:42,560
i think that's very good

3524
02:09:45,750 --> 02:09:43,679
no

3525
02:09:47,189 --> 02:09:45,760
absolutely i mean i'm very happy i have

3526
02:09:48,790 --> 02:09:47,199
an opportunity to write about these

3527
02:09:50,470 --> 02:09:48,800
people because uh

3528
02:09:52,470 --> 02:09:50,480
one thing it allows me to kind of put my

3529
02:09:54,310 --> 02:09:52,480
ideas together about them okay this is

3530
02:09:56,470 --> 02:09:54,320
this is what i've got from young and

3531
02:09:59,030 --> 02:09:56,480
this is this is where i see what's

3532
02:10:01,350 --> 02:09:59,040
important about him and clearly other

3533
02:10:02,629 --> 02:10:01,360
people who have got other things and see

3534
02:10:03,990 --> 02:10:02,639
other things so it's all part of that

3535
02:10:06,629 --> 02:10:04,000
conversation

3536
02:10:08,550 --> 02:10:06,639
um but it's you know it allows me to say

3537
02:10:10,229 --> 02:10:08,560
okay yeah this is this is what i got and

3538
02:10:11,350 --> 02:10:10,239
i can take this and bring it on to the

3539
02:10:14,629 --> 02:10:11,360
next thing

3540
02:10:16,870 --> 02:10:14,639
gentlemen

3541
02:10:18,069 --> 02:10:16,880
consists of several minutes of necessary

3542
02:10:19,990 --> 02:10:18,079
business

3543
02:10:21,510 --> 02:10:20,000
because that's how radio works unless

3544
02:10:24,350 --> 02:10:21,520
you have a course a membership in

3545
02:10:26,470 --> 02:10:24,360
powercast plus and you won't hear them

3546
02:10:28,629 --> 02:10:26,480
plus.powercast.com if you're interested

3547
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gary jean chris

3548
02:10:42,589 --> 02:10:41,669
thank you for listening to gcn

3549
02:10:47,510 --> 02:10:42,599
visit

3550
02:10:50,870 --> 02:10:49,030
this is dan pillett do you have the irs

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3552
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crippling you i've defended people from

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the irs for over 30 years i've helped

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thousands and i can help you too i wrote

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3600
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3610
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3618
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3624
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3625
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[Music]

3652
02:14:59,350 --> 02:14:56,960
this is kurt 70 author of ufo mysteries

3653
02:15:02,390 --> 02:14:59,360
and you're listening to the paracast

3654
02:15:04,950 --> 02:15:02,400
[Music]

3655
02:15:07,270 --> 02:15:04,960
now i don't know how good gary lachman

3656
02:15:08,870 --> 02:15:07,280
was in the recording studio but he does

3657
02:15:10,550 --> 02:15:08,880
all those

3658
02:15:12,149 --> 02:15:10,560
little stingers

3659
02:15:14,069 --> 02:15:12,159
in one take

3660
02:15:16,229 --> 02:15:14,079
were you one take down

3661
02:15:17,830 --> 02:15:16,239
i was pretty good in the studio

3662
02:15:19,030 --> 02:15:17,840
so you were one take one during the

3663
02:15:21,510 --> 02:15:19,040
studio then

3664
02:15:24,709 --> 02:15:21,520
yes it was well we had one one great one

3665
02:15:25,830 --> 02:15:24,719
take was uh the very first uh blondie uh

3666
02:15:28,709 --> 02:15:25,840
recording

3667
02:15:31,189 --> 02:15:28,719
a song called x offender that i wrote

3668
02:15:34,069 --> 02:15:31,199
music for um and debbie wrote the lyrics

3669
02:15:35,830 --> 02:15:34,079
but um i i actually play the guitar i

3670
02:15:37,510 --> 02:15:35,840
play guitar in that track so even though

3671
02:15:38,629 --> 02:15:37,520
it was the basis like i played guitar

3672
02:15:39,830 --> 02:15:38,639
that was one of the reasons why i you

3673
02:15:41,350 --> 02:15:39,840
know had to leave the band because i

3674
02:15:42,629 --> 02:15:41,360
want to play guitar more but there's

3675
02:15:45,030 --> 02:15:42,639
there's this great well i should say

3676
02:15:45,990 --> 02:15:45,040
there's a kind of dick dale surf guitar

3677
02:15:47,109 --> 02:15:46,000
solo

3678
02:15:53,030 --> 02:15:47,119
in in

3679
02:15:55,189 --> 02:15:53,040
take but it was recorded in the hallway

3680
02:15:56,790 --> 02:15:55,199
of radio city music hall

3681
02:15:59,750 --> 02:15:56,800
uh because they wanted to get this echo

3682
02:16:01,750 --> 02:15:59,760
sound so they had the amp me playing at

3683
02:16:03,910 --> 02:16:01,760
one end of this hall and the mic then at

3684
02:16:06,149 --> 02:16:03,920
the other end of it so yeah yeah it was

3685
02:16:08,229 --> 02:16:06,159
a one-take wonder yeah

3686
02:16:10,870 --> 02:16:08,239
i wish i could say that

3687
02:16:13,510 --> 02:16:10,880
i have had my moments but uh generally i

3688
02:16:15,030 --> 02:16:13,520
would have to work out a little bit

3689
02:16:16,310 --> 02:16:15,040
well it wasn't very difficult what i was

3690
02:16:18,629 --> 02:16:16,320
playing so

3691
02:16:20,069 --> 02:16:18,639
yeah unfortunately i had a tendency to

3692
02:16:22,470 --> 02:16:20,079
put a little bit more pressure on myself

3693
02:16:24,069 --> 02:16:22,480
than i needed to

3694
02:16:25,750 --> 02:16:24,079
which is generally how it goes you're

3695
02:16:27,830 --> 02:16:25,760
not so much worried about everything

3696
02:16:29,510 --> 02:16:27,840
else my background in rock and roll has

3697
02:16:33,110 --> 02:16:29,520
actually helped me in my new career

3698
02:16:35,509 --> 02:16:33,120
because i give lots of talks right and i

3699
02:16:36,950 --> 02:16:35,519
never feel uncomfortable or stage fright

3700
02:16:39,190 --> 02:16:36,960
or anything like that because i figure

3701
02:16:41,750 --> 02:16:39,200
you know i played in front of 80 000

3702
02:16:44,549 --> 02:16:41,760
people a few times wow so

3703
02:16:46,309 --> 02:16:44,559
having a crowd of 50 or 60 or 100 or so

3704
02:16:47,910 --> 02:16:46,319
is is

3705
02:16:49,349 --> 02:16:47,920
everything kind of pales in comparison

3706
02:16:51,349 --> 02:16:49,359
when you when you think about that you

3707
02:16:53,110 --> 02:16:51,359
know playing for festivals

3708
02:16:54,709 --> 02:16:53,120
i guess once it gets to a point where

3709
02:16:56,309 --> 02:16:54,719
there's so many people it's almost like

3710
02:16:57,830 --> 02:16:56,319
they're not there even though they do

3711
02:16:59,349 --> 02:16:57,840
make a lot of noise

3712
02:17:00,950 --> 02:16:59,359
absolutely that's really the case i

3713
02:17:02,790 --> 02:17:00,960
remember um i'm sorry we're going down

3714
02:17:04,709 --> 02:17:02,800
rock and roll uh

3715
02:17:06,870 --> 02:17:04,719
memory lane again but one show when i

3716
02:17:09,509 --> 02:17:06,880
was playing with iggy we opened for the

3717
02:17:10,950 --> 02:17:09,519
rolling stones

3718
02:17:13,349 --> 02:17:10,960
the silver dome

3719
02:17:17,030 --> 02:17:15,190
you can't see you can't see anything

3720
02:17:18,549 --> 02:17:17,040
it's just black in front of you but then

3721
02:17:20,950 --> 02:17:18,559
they hated us they weren't there to see

3722
02:17:23,429 --> 02:17:20,960
iggy pop they were there to see the gods

3723
02:17:25,830 --> 02:17:23,439
through everything they could possibly

3724
02:17:27,830 --> 02:17:25,840
get their hands on at us so out of this

3725
02:17:29,030 --> 02:17:27,840
darkness you suddenly see like sneakers

3726
02:17:29,910 --> 02:17:29,040
flying

3727
02:17:32,309 --> 02:17:29,920
you know

3728
02:17:34,230 --> 02:17:32,319
geez how disconcerting i always wonder

3729
02:17:35,429 --> 02:17:34,240
when they throw things like that do they

3730
02:17:38,230 --> 02:17:35,439
come by

3731
02:17:39,190 --> 02:17:38,240
backstage after and say can i have that

3732
02:17:41,349 --> 02:17:39,200
back

3733
02:17:43,349 --> 02:17:41,359
well on that show what happened was bill

3734
02:17:44,469 --> 02:17:43,359
graham one of the great you know

3735
02:17:46,629 --> 02:17:44,479
promoters

3736
02:17:48,870 --> 02:17:46,639
what he did was he had somebody collect

3737
02:17:49,830 --> 02:17:48,880
everything that was thrown at us

3738
02:17:51,429 --> 02:17:49,840
and then

3739
02:17:54,549 --> 02:17:51,439
before the stones came on he went out

3740
02:17:57,190 --> 02:17:54,559
with iggy pop and they read off

3741
02:18:00,629 --> 02:17:57,200
there's 25 bic lighters

3742
02:18:02,230 --> 02:18:00,639
there are you know 16 combs and they

3743
02:18:03,990 --> 02:18:02,240
just read off everything that was thrown

3744
02:18:05,589 --> 02:18:04,000
at us so and there was money people

3745
02:18:07,669 --> 02:18:05,599
threw money at us quarters and things

3746
02:18:09,270 --> 02:18:07,679
like that quarters that's that could be

3747
02:18:10,790 --> 02:18:09,280
dangerous but if they're throwing you

3748
02:18:13,190 --> 02:18:10,800
know rolled up c notes that would be

3749
02:18:16,309 --> 02:18:14,709
it was pretty i mean there was a couple

3750
02:18:18,150 --> 02:18:16,319
bottles there were a couple bottles so

3751
02:18:20,230 --> 02:18:18,160
it was it was a dangerous business yeah

3752
02:18:22,469 --> 02:18:20,240
well especially if you're the opening

3753
02:18:24,870 --> 02:18:22,479
act and people pay

3754
02:18:27,830 --> 02:18:24,880
good money for tickets to see a certain

3755
02:18:29,190 --> 02:18:27,840
band yeah whoever opens for them however

3756
02:18:30,549 --> 02:18:29,200
good they are

3757
02:18:33,110 --> 02:18:30,559
you're really getting the short end

3758
02:18:34,709 --> 02:18:33,120
there aren't you true but i tell you i

3759
02:18:35,669 --> 02:18:34,719
have a secret

3760
02:18:37,589 --> 02:18:35,679
that

3761
02:18:40,309 --> 02:18:37,599
i i was told at different times to keep

3762
02:18:41,669 --> 02:18:40,319
you know keep to myself but at that show

3763
02:18:43,110 --> 02:18:41,679
i went out into the audience when the

3764
02:18:45,349 --> 02:18:43,120
stones were playing because i actually

3765
02:18:47,910 --> 02:18:45,359
had never seen them you know perform uh

3766
02:18:50,230 --> 02:18:47,920
so i was watching them and then i could

3767
02:18:52,469 --> 02:18:50,240
see that behind them

3768
02:18:53,750 --> 02:18:52,479
there was actually another band stones

3769
02:18:55,190 --> 02:18:53,760
were playing and then

3770
02:18:57,190 --> 02:18:55,200
behind a partition there was another

3771
02:18:59,509 --> 02:18:57,200
band playing and i figured it out

3772
02:19:01,830 --> 02:18:59,519
because that's why keith richards or

3773
02:19:03,750 --> 02:19:01,840
ronnie wood could at different times

3774
02:19:05,349 --> 02:19:03,760
take their hands off the guitar and kind

3775
02:19:06,950 --> 02:19:05,359
of just start clapping you know over

3776
02:19:09,190 --> 02:19:06,960
their heads and stuff like that and then

3777
02:19:11,110 --> 02:19:09,200
the song would keep going so they kind

3778
02:19:13,910 --> 02:19:11,120
of had another band behind them kind of

3779
02:19:19,190 --> 02:19:16,790
i i swear to god this was true

3780
02:19:21,509 --> 02:19:19,200
well now we're not talking to monkeys uh

3781
02:19:22,950 --> 02:19:21,519
in 65 here i'm saying they didn't play

3782
02:19:24,309 --> 02:19:22,960
at all but it seemed like there was

3783
02:19:26,870 --> 02:19:24,319
another band back there keeping the

3784
02:19:28,309 --> 02:19:26,880
rhythm going so ron and keith could kind

3785
02:19:29,669 --> 02:19:28,319
of you know groove

3786
02:19:32,070 --> 02:19:29,679
what year was this

3787
02:19:33,750 --> 02:19:32,080
1981

3788
02:19:35,910 --> 02:19:33,760
yeah keith has still

3789
02:19:37,190 --> 02:19:35,920
the other band on the bill was santana

3790
02:19:39,429 --> 02:19:37,200
so you know

3791
02:19:41,910 --> 02:19:39,439
wow what a great show yeah that's back

3792
02:19:44,230 --> 02:19:41,920
in the back in the day well the santana

3793
02:19:47,990 --> 02:19:44,240
didn't need to have a band behind

3794
02:19:51,429 --> 02:19:49,110
you know it's interesting about the

3795
02:19:54,469 --> 02:19:51,439
monkeys though it's kind of crazy here

3796
02:19:55,910 --> 02:19:54,479
because they all played guitar you know

3797
02:19:58,150 --> 02:19:55,920
david jones didn't play an instrument

3798
02:19:58,870 --> 02:19:58,160
but the other three played guitar

3799
02:20:00,870 --> 02:19:58,880
but

3800
02:20:03,830 --> 02:20:00,880
they had to put mickey dolan's on drums

3801
02:20:05,670 --> 02:20:03,840
because they needed a drummer yeah i

3802
02:20:06,870 --> 02:20:05,680
know i know i know well they know and

3803
02:20:08,550 --> 02:20:06,880
well they were kind of the first sex

3804
02:20:10,070 --> 02:20:08,560
pistols they were invented right and

3805
02:20:11,990 --> 02:20:10,080
then they kind of came out and did their

3806
02:20:13,910 --> 02:20:12,000
own thing and all that even with the

3807
02:20:16,630 --> 02:20:13,920
death of david jones they came out with

3808
02:20:18,950 --> 02:20:16,640
a new album mike nesmith still performs

3809
02:20:20,870 --> 02:20:18,960
with them occasionally yeah you know

3810
02:20:22,469 --> 02:20:20,880
it's kind of cool that they can do it at

3811
02:20:24,550 --> 02:20:22,479
70 years old

3812
02:20:26,790 --> 02:20:24,560
absolutely and head has got to be one of

3813
02:20:27,750 --> 02:20:26,800
the strangest films ever made

3814
02:20:29,910 --> 02:20:27,760
yeah

3815
02:20:32,070 --> 02:20:29,920
i mean if you haven't seen that that

3816
02:20:34,230 --> 02:20:32,080
that's definitely worth the netflix

3817
02:20:35,830 --> 02:20:34,240
yeah a double still would be that film

3818
02:20:37,750 --> 02:20:35,840
and performance and that'll say

3819
02:20:39,510 --> 02:20:37,760
something really about the the tail end

3820
02:20:40,870 --> 02:20:39,520
of the 60s

3821
02:20:47,910 --> 02:20:40,880
yeah

3822
02:20:51,990 --> 02:20:47,920
very dark film very very very dark

3823
02:20:55,110 --> 02:20:53,190
quite a uh

3824
02:20:56,790 --> 02:20:55,120
quite an interesting character oh yeah

3825
02:20:58,550 --> 02:20:56,800
yeah well i mean there's all myths

3826
02:21:01,349 --> 02:20:58,560
around that too that nobody came out of

3827
02:21:03,670 --> 02:21:01,359
that alive as it were because uh

3828
02:21:05,030 --> 02:21:03,680
apparently she became addicted

3829
02:21:08,230 --> 02:21:05,040
i forget the

3830
02:21:09,670 --> 02:21:08,240
actress's name who plays this kind of

3831
02:21:10,950 --> 02:21:09,680
androgynous

3832
02:21:13,750 --> 02:21:10,960
you know character you're not quite sure

3833
02:21:15,510 --> 02:21:13,760
whether it's a boy or a girl apparently

3834
02:21:18,070 --> 02:21:15,520
she came to a bad end

3835
02:21:19,190 --> 02:21:18,080
james fox who's the only real actor in

3836
02:21:21,270 --> 02:21:19,200
the film

3837
02:21:23,429 --> 02:21:21,280
the story was that he was actually dosed

3838
02:21:25,190 --> 02:21:23,439
you know while it was being made right

3839
02:21:27,110 --> 02:21:25,200
and such a bad experience that he gave

3840
02:21:29,190 --> 02:21:27,120
up acting after that and became born

3841
02:21:31,030 --> 02:21:29,200
again christian for a while

3842
02:21:32,469 --> 02:21:31,040
uh and obviously david david campbell

3843
02:21:34,870 --> 02:21:32,479
you know wound up you know the filmmaker

3844
02:21:36,710 --> 02:21:34,880
wound up blowing his brains out um so

3845
02:21:39,030 --> 02:21:36,720
yeah there's a there's a again this this

3846
02:21:42,230 --> 02:21:39,040
is kind of the the dark sinister side of

3847
02:21:43,830 --> 02:21:42,240
the occult that was attached to this

3848
02:21:45,750 --> 02:21:43,840
kind of weird stuff that's going on in

3849
02:21:47,590 --> 02:21:45,760
the 60s that i talk about in you know my

3850
02:21:50,309 --> 02:21:47,600
book turn off your mind and and all of

3851
02:21:52,550 --> 02:21:50,319
that it's kind of you know strange weird

3852
02:21:54,710 --> 02:21:52,560
kind of familiar there

3853
02:21:57,910 --> 02:21:54,720
yeah there's there's other examples too

3854
02:21:59,990 --> 02:21:57,920
of of of uh bands and um

3855
02:22:02,309 --> 02:22:00,000
and you know celebrity types actresses

3856
02:22:05,590 --> 02:22:02,319
actors that um

3857
02:22:07,670 --> 02:22:05,600
it have a string of very bad luck after

3858
02:22:10,230 --> 02:22:07,680
uh being publicly identified as having

3859
02:22:11,990 --> 02:22:10,240
interest in the occult and

3860
02:22:13,429 --> 02:22:12,000
it's someone should write a book about

3861
02:22:14,790 --> 02:22:13,439
that sometimes

3862
02:22:16,150 --> 02:22:14,800
because there's some good ones it

3863
02:22:19,190 --> 02:22:16,160
probably is i mean there's that book

3864
02:22:20,710 --> 02:22:19,200
season of the witch that um is a good

3865
02:22:24,230 --> 02:22:20,720
book about the occult and rock and all

3866
02:22:26,469 --> 02:22:24,240
that so yeah you know and um and also uh

3867
02:22:27,990 --> 02:22:26,479
the number of people that are are have a

3868
02:22:29,910 --> 02:22:28,000
more than a passing interest in the

3869
02:22:30,710 --> 02:22:29,920
occult that you would never imagine that

3870
02:22:35,429 --> 02:22:30,720
uh

3871
02:22:37,830 --> 02:22:35,439
any immense mention of reference to that

3872
02:22:39,830 --> 02:22:37,840
interest uh well out of sight of the

3873
02:22:41,750 --> 02:22:39,840
public um there's quite a number of

3874
02:22:43,750 --> 02:22:41,760
people that would surprise you

3875
02:22:46,230 --> 02:22:43,760
oh yeah i mean well maybe not you but it

3876
02:22:47,590 --> 02:22:46,240
would surprise a lot of people oh yeah i

3877
02:22:49,990 --> 02:22:47,600
don't know i mean

3878
02:22:51,750 --> 02:22:50,000
like somebody like ronald reagan he had

3879
02:22:53,349 --> 02:22:51,760
he had a real interest in it and all

3880
02:22:55,190 --> 02:22:53,359
that right i think he's not the first

3881
02:22:57,110 --> 02:22:55,200
person you would think you know

3882
02:22:58,950 --> 02:22:57,120
to uh to be someone interested in that

3883
02:22:59,910 --> 02:22:58,960
kind of thing so yeah i know it's there

3884
02:23:02,150 --> 02:22:59,920
you know

3885
02:23:04,070 --> 02:23:02,160
i mean how what it means and actually

3886
02:23:05,270 --> 02:23:04,080
what it leads to is another question but

3887
02:23:07,030 --> 02:23:05,280
the fact that they actually have the

3888
02:23:07,830 --> 02:23:07,040
interest is something that that's you

3889
02:23:10,630 --> 02:23:07,840
know

3890
02:23:12,870 --> 02:23:10,640
but politicians can't be interested

3891
02:23:14,150 --> 02:23:12,880
in anything that isn't material

3892
02:23:15,990 --> 02:23:14,160
it's true

3893
02:23:17,429 --> 02:23:16,000
that's true well who knows about trump

3894
02:23:19,270 --> 02:23:17,439
who knows what's going to you know come

3895
02:23:20,710 --> 02:23:19,280
out of the closet with him or you know

3896
02:23:22,230 --> 02:23:20,720
whatever you know

3897
02:23:25,590 --> 02:23:22,240
um

3898
02:23:26,790 --> 02:23:25,600
well he watched short attention span

3899
02:23:29,190 --> 02:23:26,800
20 years

3900
02:23:31,670 --> 02:23:29,200
his states looks really really

3901
02:23:34,070 --> 02:23:31,680
increasingly strange

3902
02:23:35,190 --> 02:23:34,080
yeah i i can imagine especially coming

3903
02:23:38,070 --> 02:23:35,200
from uh

3904
02:23:40,630 --> 02:23:38,080
from the new york area and um

3905
02:23:44,070 --> 02:23:40,640
you know watching watching the uh

3906
02:23:48,790 --> 02:23:46,870
pitfalls and pratfalls and uh trials and

3907
02:23:51,670 --> 02:23:48,800
tribulations of uh

3908
02:23:55,670 --> 02:23:51,680
of of trump and and and

3909
02:23:58,389 --> 02:23:55,680
any politician from new york really yeah

3910
02:24:00,389 --> 02:23:58,399
the problem you see there is with the

3911
02:24:01,670 --> 02:24:00,399
mainstream media not lame stream the

3912
02:24:03,510 --> 02:24:01,680
mainstream media

3913
02:24:06,630 --> 02:24:03,520
these are big corporations that are

3914
02:24:09,510 --> 02:24:06,640
appealing to the widest number of people

3915
02:24:10,389 --> 02:24:09,520
getting the best ratings and they dumb

3916
02:24:14,309 --> 02:24:10,399
down

3917
02:24:17,110 --> 02:24:14,319
anything when you start getting into

3918
02:24:19,830 --> 02:24:17,120
abstracts about any particular person

3919
02:24:22,870 --> 02:24:19,840
a politician a rock star anything

3920
02:24:24,469 --> 02:24:22,880
that's way way way above their heads at

3921
02:24:26,469 --> 02:24:24,479
least in terms of what they want to tell

3922
02:24:28,550 --> 02:24:26,479
you about we've got more to come with

3923
02:24:38,389 --> 02:24:28,560
gary lachman and jean and chris you're

3924
02:24:42,830 --> 02:24:40,830
you are listening to

3925
02:24:44,310 --> 02:24:42,840
gcn visit

3926
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gcnlive.com today

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4024
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into the paracast let me tell you what

4025
02:29:01,750 --> 02:28:58,399
you're going to hear stuff here that you

4026
02:29:04,630 --> 02:29:01,760
probably won't hear anywhere else hear

4027
02:29:06,469 --> 02:29:04,640
that george snorri

4028
02:29:08,070 --> 02:29:06,479
i raised this so maybe i'll just do it

4029
02:29:09,990 --> 02:29:08,080
because we have one segment left with

4030
02:29:11,429 --> 02:29:10,000
you gary it's just been

4031
02:29:13,590 --> 02:29:11,439
moving so quickly

4032
02:29:16,070 --> 02:29:13,600
and that is that's another story you're

4033
02:29:18,469 --> 02:29:16,080
writing about a lot of stuff here as we

4034
02:29:20,230 --> 02:29:18,479
are with our show and what i write and

4035
02:29:21,110 --> 02:29:20,240
what chris writes and what we talk about

4036
02:29:22,790 --> 02:29:21,120
here

4037
02:29:23,990 --> 02:29:22,800
that is

4038
02:29:25,590 --> 02:29:24,000
way

4039
02:29:27,429 --> 02:29:25,600
off the radar

4040
02:29:28,309 --> 02:29:27,439
from the media what people are being

4041
02:29:30,070 --> 02:29:28,319
told

4042
02:29:32,790 --> 02:29:30,080
and so we have someone like a colin

4043
02:29:36,309 --> 02:29:32,800
wilson who has this fascinating life

4044
02:29:38,950 --> 02:29:36,319
writing sci-fi writing crime writing

4045
02:29:40,550 --> 02:29:38,960
about philosophy all sorts of things

4046
02:29:42,550 --> 02:29:40,560
that also

4047
02:29:44,070 --> 02:29:42,560
are mostly beyond

4048
02:29:44,870 --> 02:29:44,080
someone's radar

4049
02:29:46,630 --> 02:29:44,880
so

4050
02:29:50,550 --> 02:29:46,640
in looking for this

4051
02:29:52,389 --> 02:29:50,560
how does anyone or can anyone take this

4052
02:29:54,870 --> 02:29:52,399
kind of material and break through i

4053
02:29:57,429 --> 02:29:54,880
mean obviously you had to be involved to

4054
02:29:59,349 --> 02:29:57,439
some degree with what the popular media

4055
02:30:01,510 --> 02:29:59,359
might want because of your history and

4056
02:30:04,230 --> 02:30:01,520
rock and roll but how does that get done

4057
02:30:05,750 --> 02:30:04,240
with books like this or can it well you

4058
02:30:07,830 --> 02:30:05,760
know i mean i think there's a big

4059
02:30:09,270 --> 02:30:07,840
readership out there i mean wilson

4060
02:30:10,950 --> 02:30:09,280
himself in his day had had a big

4061
02:30:13,590 --> 02:30:10,960
readership but you know other people

4062
02:30:15,830 --> 02:30:13,600
doing other work along the same lines

4063
02:30:18,710 --> 02:30:15,840
are out there in different ways like

4064
02:30:21,190 --> 02:30:18,720
graham hancock let's say or whitney

4065
02:30:23,429 --> 02:30:21,200
strieber i mean these are more focused

4066
02:30:25,030 --> 02:30:23,439
kinds of things on on particular topics

4067
02:30:27,349 --> 02:30:25,040
ancient civilizations or sort of the

4068
02:30:29,110 --> 02:30:27,359
abduction experience well of course with

4069
02:30:30,790 --> 02:30:29,120
ufo abductions

4070
02:30:33,190 --> 02:30:30,800
you know they get to be on the simple

4071
02:30:35,830 --> 02:30:33,200
level okay aliens come here

4072
02:30:37,830 --> 02:30:35,840
they take us aboard do some silly

4073
02:30:40,790 --> 02:30:37,840
physical examinations and they send us a

4074
02:30:43,510 --> 02:30:40,800
loft and the the same thing with

4075
02:30:44,710 --> 02:30:43,520
ufo sightings okay there's a spaceship

4076
02:30:46,870 --> 02:30:44,720
that's it

4077
02:30:48,550 --> 02:30:46,880
ghosts yeah spirits of the dead it's

4078
02:30:51,190 --> 02:30:48,560
your dead grandmother wanted to come

4079
02:30:53,349 --> 02:30:51,200
back and tell you that the secret gold

4080
02:30:55,990 --> 02:30:53,359
lockets in the safe

4081
02:30:59,030 --> 02:30:56,000
yeah well i tell you you know the real

4082
02:31:01,190 --> 02:30:59,040
thing is is called esoteric esoteric

4083
02:31:02,790 --> 02:31:01,200
means the inner it's not the surface

4084
02:31:04,630 --> 02:31:02,800
it's not the outer

4085
02:31:06,389 --> 02:31:04,640
covering of things it's the inner

4086
02:31:08,550 --> 02:31:06,399
content it's the kernel it's not the

4087
02:31:11,510 --> 02:31:08,560
shell but isn't that something we need

4088
02:31:12,950 --> 02:31:11,520
to understand to better realize what

4089
02:31:14,870 --> 02:31:12,960
life is all about

4090
02:31:16,630 --> 02:31:14,880
i think you're absolutely right and i

4091
02:31:19,110 --> 02:31:16,640
think it's true that more people today

4092
02:31:20,550 --> 02:31:19,120
have some sense of that let's say i said

4093
02:31:23,030 --> 02:31:20,560
there was this occult revival in the

4094
02:31:24,550 --> 02:31:23,040
1960s uh that was caught up with lots of

4095
02:31:26,710 --> 02:31:24,560
other things you know the sexual

4096
02:31:28,870 --> 02:31:26,720
revolution the psychedelic revolution

4097
02:31:30,550 --> 02:31:28,880
social revolutions and all that at that

4098
02:31:31,670 --> 02:31:30,560
point it was it was part of this big

4099
02:31:33,830 --> 02:31:31,680
thing that was happening and then it

4100
02:31:35,270 --> 02:31:33,840
kind of settled you know the revolution

4101
02:31:37,190 --> 02:31:35,280
didn't really happen atlantis didn't

4102
02:31:39,510 --> 02:31:37,200
really rise and so we you know we got

4103
02:31:41,190 --> 02:31:39,520
into the gritty 70s but it was an

4104
02:31:42,870 --> 02:31:41,200
underlying sensibility that was

4105
02:31:45,429 --> 02:31:42,880
established and i think it's it's it's

4106
02:31:47,270 --> 02:31:45,439
grown it has its own problems the new

4107
02:31:49,510 --> 02:31:47,280
age has its own problems it's too

4108
02:31:51,590 --> 02:31:49,520
simplistic it doesn't think it's too

4109
02:31:53,270 --> 02:31:51,600
uncritical there's too many wacky things

4110
02:31:54,550 --> 02:31:53,280
that it just accepts you know without

4111
02:31:56,550 --> 02:31:54,560
thinking about it

4112
02:31:59,670 --> 02:31:56,560
but i think it suggests that there's an

4113
02:32:02,309 --> 02:31:59,680
underlying hunger for this other kind of

4114
02:32:04,230 --> 02:32:02,319
thing and yes most of the stuff about

4115
02:32:05,990 --> 02:32:04,240
what we've been talking about now when

4116
02:32:07,830 --> 02:32:06,000
it shows up on television it's it's the

4117
02:32:09,110 --> 02:32:07,840
simplistic dumbed-down kind of version i

4118
02:32:10,630 --> 02:32:09,120
mean i i've done a few of these

4119
02:32:13,429 --> 02:32:10,640
documentaries

4120
02:32:15,110 --> 02:32:13,439
and the idea is yes okay yes it's not

4121
02:32:17,510 --> 02:32:15,120
it's it's not really well researched and

4122
02:32:19,910 --> 02:32:17,520
it's not really you know insightful but

4123
02:32:21,750 --> 02:32:19,920
you're on tv kid and you'll get lots of

4124
02:32:23,190 --> 02:32:21,760
people you know hearing what you got to

4125
02:32:24,790 --> 02:32:23,200
say about it and so you do a few of

4126
02:32:26,630 --> 02:32:24,800
those and you realize well actually in

4127
02:32:28,469 --> 02:32:26,640
many ways you're not really helping your

4128
02:32:31,349 --> 02:32:28,479
own cause because you're just kind of

4129
02:32:33,270 --> 02:32:31,359
providing content for these other guys

4130
02:32:34,870 --> 02:32:33,280
you know that that in the end they're

4131
02:32:36,550 --> 02:32:34,880
going to say the same thing and it's the

4132
02:32:38,230 --> 02:32:36,560
thing that you don't want to say you

4133
02:32:39,830 --> 02:32:38,240
want to say the opposite you've got to

4134
02:32:41,750 --> 02:32:39,840
have faith you've got to hope that

4135
02:32:43,590 --> 02:32:41,760
there's other people like you out there

4136
02:32:45,030 --> 02:32:43,600
and then gradually they'll be

4137
02:32:47,110 --> 02:32:45,040
undercurrent there'll be a kind of

4138
02:32:48,870 --> 02:32:47,120
osmosis effect where these deeper

4139
02:32:50,309 --> 02:32:48,880
understandings will spread they'll

4140
02:32:52,389 --> 02:32:50,319
spread by word of mouth they'll spread

4141
02:32:55,030 --> 02:32:52,399
by programs like this like what we're

4142
02:32:56,550 --> 02:32:55,040
doing now and other interviews i do and

4143
02:32:58,790 --> 02:32:56,560
other programs and other people do these

4144
02:33:00,550 --> 02:32:58,800
interviews i think there's a hunger for

4145
02:33:02,389 --> 02:33:00,560
this kind of thing but you're not going

4146
02:33:04,150 --> 02:33:02,399
to see immediate evidence for it just

4147
02:33:05,910 --> 02:33:04,160
like you're not going to see a big neon

4148
02:33:08,550 --> 02:33:05,920
sign come up over the horizon say okay

4149
02:33:10,550 --> 02:33:08,560
new age starts now age of aquarius

4150
02:33:11,429 --> 02:33:10,560
starts now it's nothing like that this

4151
02:33:12,950 --> 02:33:11,439
is something i'm actually going to be

4152
02:33:14,790 --> 02:33:12,960
writing about i've been asked to do an

4153
02:33:17,830 --> 02:33:14,800
article about this kind of thing

4154
02:33:19,830 --> 02:33:17,840
in my books i often talk about what i

4155
02:33:23,190 --> 02:33:19,840
call an evolution of consciousness means

4156
02:33:25,349 --> 02:33:23,200
that over history or basic kind of the

4157
02:33:27,830 --> 02:33:25,359
form the shape of our consciousness has

4158
02:33:30,150 --> 02:33:27,840
changed over time you know does that

4159
02:33:31,910 --> 02:33:30,160
mean that things are getting better no i

4160
02:33:32,870 --> 02:33:31,920
don't think it automatically does i

4161
02:33:34,389 --> 02:33:32,880
think

4162
02:33:36,710 --> 02:33:34,399
consciousness can shift and change

4163
02:33:38,230 --> 02:33:36,720
during the worst possible crises and i

4164
02:33:38,950 --> 02:33:38,240
think that's what we're heading into now

4165
02:33:43,510 --> 02:33:38,960
or

4166
02:33:45,110 --> 02:33:43,520
the last few decades it can it can

4167
02:33:46,790 --> 02:33:45,120
decimate everything that's around it at

4168
02:33:48,550 --> 02:33:46,800
the time yeah hopefully at the very

4169
02:33:51,030 --> 02:33:48,560
least it'll shake some people out of

4170
02:33:53,349 --> 02:33:51,040
their waking coma and wake some folks up

4171
02:33:55,830 --> 02:33:53,359
because absolutely and before november

4172
02:33:59,030 --> 02:33:57,429
we gotta watch this very carefully

4173
02:33:59,990 --> 02:33:59,040
because talking about politically

4174
02:34:02,070 --> 02:34:00,000
correct

4175
02:34:04,550 --> 02:34:02,080
gary i don't know how often you've

4176
02:34:06,710 --> 02:34:04,560
listened to the power cast but when we

4177
02:34:09,030 --> 02:34:06,720
get into anything about politics more

4178
02:34:11,510 --> 02:34:09,040
than just a couple of surface details

4179
02:34:13,510 --> 02:34:11,520
yeah it is so polarized there you can't

4180
02:34:16,389 --> 02:34:13,520
really have a legitimate discussion like

4181
02:34:19,030 --> 02:34:16,399
we have one listener herodon says you

4182
02:34:20,230 --> 02:34:19,040
know don't do that and then said we

4183
02:34:22,309 --> 02:34:20,240
shouldn't even

4184
02:34:24,630 --> 02:34:22,319
keep any money that's generated by the

4185
02:34:26,790 --> 02:34:24,640
show we should just have entry-level

4186
02:34:28,790 --> 02:34:26,800
jobs we're not allowed to touch that

4187
02:34:30,870 --> 02:34:28,800
money so i don't know there's a lot of

4188
02:34:33,190 --> 02:34:30,880
wackiness out there it's the same thing

4189
02:34:34,950 --> 02:34:33,200
here in the uk it's got very polarized

4190
02:34:37,590 --> 02:34:34,960
recently because of the whole brexit

4191
02:34:39,429 --> 02:34:37,600
thing sure yeah even the eu

4192
02:34:41,510 --> 02:34:39,439
and there's an incredible sense of

4193
02:34:43,349 --> 02:34:41,520
nationalism here now and there's an

4194
02:34:45,510 --> 02:34:43,359
incredible sense of everything has to be

4195
02:34:46,790 --> 02:34:45,520
british and all that kind of thing and i

4196
02:34:48,870 --> 02:34:46,800
you know i'm nothing against things

4197
02:34:50,630 --> 02:34:48,880
being british but it's a real on how to

4198
02:34:53,110 --> 02:34:50,640
say it it's it a lot of people i know

4199
02:34:54,630 --> 02:34:53,120
that europeans that are from europe have

4200
02:34:55,590 --> 02:34:54,640
been here for a long time they're going

4201
02:34:57,990 --> 02:34:55,600
back

4202
02:35:00,870 --> 02:34:58,000
because um they really feel the

4203
02:35:01,990 --> 02:35:00,880
atmosphere here is very inimicable you

4204
02:35:04,550 --> 02:35:02,000
know to them

4205
02:35:07,349 --> 02:35:04,560
and sadly in in some places this whole

4206
02:35:10,070 --> 02:35:07,359
thing is unleashed a really horrible

4207
02:35:11,990 --> 02:35:10,080
kind of xenophobia and and jingoism and

4208
02:35:13,830 --> 02:35:12,000
all that so i i think it's very scary

4209
02:35:15,750 --> 02:35:13,840
times you know i mean in many ways

4210
02:35:17,510 --> 02:35:15,760
rudolf steiner quoting from the book of

4211
02:35:20,070 --> 02:35:17,520
revelations he talked about the coming

4212
02:35:21,590 --> 02:35:20,080
war of all against all and i sometimes

4213
02:35:22,870 --> 02:35:21,600
wonder if that's you know what we're

4214
02:35:24,950 --> 02:35:22,880
kind of drifting into i mean look at

4215
02:35:27,590 --> 02:35:24,960
syria who who's shooting rockets said

4216
02:35:29,990 --> 02:35:27,600
who well just to give you an example of

4217
02:35:32,150 --> 02:35:30,000
of uh you know the indigenous culture of

4218
02:35:34,150 --> 02:35:32,160
of the americas um the hopi you've been

4219
02:35:35,670 --> 02:35:34,160
here for tens of thousands of years

4220
02:35:37,990 --> 02:35:35,680
grandfather martin who was a holder of

4221
02:35:39,830 --> 02:35:38,000
the official you know prophecy uh fire

4222
02:35:42,309 --> 02:35:39,840
clan prophecy tablets when

4223
02:35:44,550 --> 02:35:42,319
he saw one of the hopi purple flowers

4224
02:35:46,710 --> 02:35:44,560
coming up through a snow blank uh bank

4225
02:35:47,910 --> 02:35:46,720
during a blizzard he interpreted that as

4226
02:35:49,270 --> 02:35:47,920
being fulfillment of one of the

4227
02:35:51,510 --> 02:35:49,280
prophecies and

4228
02:35:53,590 --> 02:35:51,520
probably the most harrowing of the of

4229
02:35:55,590 --> 02:35:53,600
the prophecies the beginning of the war

4230
02:35:56,710 --> 02:35:55,600
of the gourd of ashes and he did a press

4231
02:35:58,950 --> 02:35:56,720
conference with the governor of new

4232
02:36:01,270 --> 02:35:58,960
mexico and said within six eight months

4233
02:36:03,429 --> 02:36:01,280
the final conflict will start and that's

4234
02:36:05,270 --> 02:36:03,439
when six months late we went into kuwait

4235
02:36:06,710 --> 02:36:05,280
to kick hussein out of kuwait uh in

4236
02:36:08,550 --> 02:36:06,720
desert storm

4237
02:36:10,550 --> 02:36:08,560
and uh up to his death he said yeah

4238
02:36:13,190 --> 02:36:10,560
that's that's it that's the war that's

4239
02:36:15,349 --> 02:36:13,200
uh that's that's the biggie

4240
02:36:16,790 --> 02:36:15,359
yeah well well i hope everybody is wrong

4241
02:36:18,389 --> 02:36:16,800
about this

4242
02:36:21,510 --> 02:36:18,399
because

4243
02:36:23,429 --> 02:36:21,520
was i was very

4244
02:36:25,830 --> 02:36:23,439
very privileged in my in my life i

4245
02:36:27,510 --> 02:36:25,840
didn't have to go to vietnam my father

4246
02:36:28,790 --> 02:36:27,520
was in world war ii i didn't have to get

4247
02:36:30,309 --> 02:36:28,800
drafted i didn't have to go anywhere i

4248
02:36:32,389 --> 02:36:30,319
didn't have to do anything none of that

4249
02:36:33,590 --> 02:36:32,399
really impinged on my life but i i did

4250
02:36:35,670 --> 02:36:33,600
start to think well actually when the

4251
02:36:38,389 --> 02:36:35,680
excrement hits the air conditioner it's

4252
02:36:40,630 --> 02:36:38,399
going to be when i'm in my 70s or

4253
02:36:42,469 --> 02:36:40,640
something like that or my late 60s when

4254
02:36:44,550 --> 02:36:42,479
i'm going to be kind of too old and

4255
02:36:46,630 --> 02:36:44,560
feeble to actually kind of deal with the

4256
02:36:49,510 --> 02:36:46,640
fallout i hope everybody's

4257
02:36:51,349 --> 02:36:49,520
i resemble that remark because gary i am

4258
02:36:53,510 --> 02:36:51,359
as most listeners know

4259
02:36:55,830 --> 02:36:53,520
older than you are you know we have to

4260
02:36:56,870 --> 02:36:55,840
end it here because the clock sends me a

4261
02:36:59,270 --> 02:36:56,880
little message

4262
02:37:01,670 --> 02:36:59,280
it's kind of like a taptic engine that

4263
02:37:03,429 --> 02:37:01,680
grabs me by the neck and says wrap the

4264
02:37:05,750 --> 02:37:03,439
show up gary lachman where can we find

4265
02:37:08,469 --> 02:37:05,760
more of the stuff you do uh well you can

4266
02:37:10,870 --> 02:37:08,479
find my books on amazon and you can also

4267
02:37:15,429 --> 02:37:10,880
find stuff about me at my my blog which

4268
02:37:19,910 --> 02:37:17,990
um and you know put my name into google

4269
02:37:21,910 --> 02:37:19,920
and you'll find lots of stuff up there

4270
02:37:23,030 --> 02:37:21,920
we even find your age and your birthday

4271
02:37:25,750 --> 02:37:23,040
by the way

4272
02:37:29,670 --> 02:37:25,760
no no if you want that to happen but we

4273
02:37:31,510 --> 02:37:29,680
know december 24th 1955. yeah just a

4274
02:37:33,349 --> 02:37:31,520
mere land

4275
02:37:36,150 --> 02:37:33,359
you can find us on twitter if you look

4276
02:37:37,190 --> 02:37:36,160
for the power cast look for a pair of

4277
02:37:42,389 --> 02:37:37,200
official

4278
02:37:43,750 --> 02:37:42,399
power cast fan clubs on facebook we also

4279
02:37:45,910 --> 02:37:43,760
have that second radio show that's going

4280
02:37:48,550 --> 02:37:45,920
to be fascinating this week it's called

4281
02:37:50,590 --> 02:37:48,560
after the paracast and if you want to

4282
02:37:52,309 --> 02:37:50,600
know more about it go to

4283
02:37:54,790 --> 02:37:52,319
plus.powercast.com to learn about the

4284
02:37:56,630 --> 02:37:54,800
powercast plus we give you a commercial

4285
02:37:58,950 --> 02:37:56,640
free version of this show

4286
02:38:01,910 --> 02:37:58,960
and other exciting features

4287
02:38:02,950 --> 02:38:01,920
the price as alfred newman said so many

4288
02:38:04,469 --> 02:38:02,960
years ago

4289
02:38:06,710 --> 02:38:04,479
our price

4290
02:38:09,590 --> 02:38:06,720
cheap

4291
02:38:10,950 --> 02:38:09,600
it's a monthly subscription price annual

4292
02:38:13,270 --> 02:38:10,960
five years

4293
02:38:15,510 --> 02:38:13,280
even your lifetime and i'm gonna be here

4294
02:38:16,710 --> 02:38:15,520
a while as old as i am i'm old as the

4295
02:38:18,710 --> 02:38:16,720
hills

4296
02:38:20,630 --> 02:38:18,720
but i'm going to be here for a long long

4297
02:38:21,830 --> 02:38:20,640
time that's what some people tell me

4298
02:38:24,389 --> 02:38:21,840
other people said you know you've

4299
02:38:26,309 --> 02:38:24,399
outlived your usefulness just pack it in

4300
02:38:28,630 --> 02:38:26,319
man but i'm not going to do it you want

4301
02:38:30,469 --> 02:38:28,640
to learn more about the powercast plus

4302
02:38:32,630 --> 02:38:30,479
all the information you need including

4303
02:38:36,070 --> 02:38:32,640
simple sign up instructions at

4304
02:38:42,230 --> 02:38:39,510
gary lachman i'm very happy to meet you

4305
02:38:44,550 --> 02:38:42,240
and to meet the famous member of the

4306
02:38:46,389 --> 02:38:44,560
rock and roll hall of fame

4307
02:38:47,910 --> 02:38:46,399
and a great author thanks for joining us

4308
02:39:03,990 --> 02:38:47,920
on the power cast

4309
02:39:09,750 --> 02:39:06,790
the paracast featuring gene steinberg

4310
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and christopher o'brien is a copyrighted

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presentation of making the impossible

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incorporated